71chally Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Steve is correct there, and all S.4s (& the majority of TF.2s) had the dihedral tailplane. Some of the very early ones converted from TF.2s didn't have the finlets initially. That picture reminds me, another great source for Wyvern info and pics is the 'Flight' magazine archive, https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/search.aspx?ArchiveSearchForm%24search=wyvern&ArchiveSearchForm%24fromYear=1950&ArchiveSearchForm%24toYear=1958&x=25&y=10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max89 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 Awesome! Thanks for that link, 71chally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max89 Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Anyone know what these three circles are highlighted in red? I first noticed them on WP346 where they're hard to see, but I managed to find a clearer close up shot of that area on another Wyvern. Edited October 16, 2017 by Max89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britman Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Could be the starter exhaust, coffman or something? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 The main that you can see on the port side is the cartridges starter outlet, I'm guessing the others are oulet or inlet ports for various parts of the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max89 Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) I see. Are these on all S4 aircraft? I don't see them on every Wyvern, but perhaps they just might not be visible in some pictures. Edited October 16, 2017 by Max89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Max89..you are a bad man forcing me to go and look through three books on the Wyvern and a welcome diversion it was too ! As reported above this is the vent for the Coffman starter cartridge. The Python engine was started with either HP air from a starter trolley or the cartridge if that wasn't available. Looking at dozens of photographs it does appear that some do not have them (or readily visible anyway) and that aircraft within the same serial range of all the batches (VZ, WP or WN) differ in that some have yet others don't appear to have. There has to be an exhaust for the cartridge gases but I'm afraid I don't know where it is on the ones where it isn't obvious. Although the cartridge was rarely used according to Michael J Doust (Wyvern from the cockpit) I can't see then removing that form of starter as there would be the odd occasion when HP air wasn't available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max89 Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) LOL, I can't help it! Ok, so my guess is either they phased out the Coffman starter OR the vents are covered up when the aircraft is in flight. Or perhaps the engines with the visible Coffman exhausts are Python 2 engines? Edited October 17, 2017 by Max89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) I can't figure out a logical sequence for those two side vents either, as Scimitar says aircraft within the same serials batches seem to vary. The cartridge starter (made by BTH) was fitted right through to the end, there is a pic of Wyverns cartridge starting together consisting of VZ and WL serials. There were VW, WN & WP range aircraft pictured with the vents, and some with out, though it seems more prevailant on the later aircraft. All S.4s, including those converted from TF.2s had the Python 3 engine. It might be that the larger upper side vent (as seen on WP346) appears on most of Wyverns, but doesn't show well in pics due to it's position and some aircraft having the dark grey top applied in that area. Go figure! Edited October 17, 2017 by 71chally 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max89 Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 3 hours ago, 71chally said: All S.4s, including those converted from TF.2s had the Python 3 engine. Just a random thought that struck me, but since WP346's engine is a replacement unit and because its cover doesn't have the camouflage stripe on top of it, could it not have been sourced from an earlier Wyvern with a Python 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 highly unlikely that the older engine would be fitted, even late the TF.2s (VW880 on) had the later engine fitted. I would definitely say that it is down to the two different paint demarkations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 4 hours ago, 71chally said: I would definitely say that it is down to the two different paint demarkations. Whilst this may explain the top vent being hidden by the EDSG paint and given the prominent hole I'm not so sure, it doesn't explain the two other vents,one of which is obviously the cartridge exhaust given the staining. I wondered if we are just not seeing it in the other photos because there is no staining and the poor quality of most photos but I don't think this is the case. Look at these two and in the first there isn't even the suggestion of an exhaust hole even if it was covered (I was thinking like gun ports' patches so I saved the pic and blew it up to have a look) Amazing too how few port side photos of the Wyvern there are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) on that point Scimitar I was responding to the post before about the different nose piece fitted to WP346. I'm with you on the rest of it, the vents definitely appear in some shots and not others, certainly seem more prevailant towards the end of the Wyverns' service life, so maybe associated with the types major mods in c'56? BTW @Scimitar what is the third Wyven publication, I've got From the Cockpit and 4+. I think BARG did a monograph on the type? Edited October 18, 2017 by 71chally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 37 minutes ago, 71chally said: @Scimitar I think BARG did a monograph on the type? They did: BARG No 1(S), followed by BARG 2(S) on the Skyraider AEW.1. Both most excellent publications. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Thanks Seahawk, will look out for those, hopefully they will be on the DVDs that they are releasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, 71chally said: Thanks Seahawk, will look out for those, hopefully they will be on the DVDs that they are releasing. And I will be looking out for the DVDs: thank you for the tip-off. If there are any more in the series, I want them! Roundel looks as if it might be worth a gander as well. Edit: looks like DVD 1 will be the one to look out for. The Wyvern booklet was published in Blackbushe Aviation Research Group days. http://bargdvd.co.uk/about/ Edited October 18, 2017 by Seahawk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 2 hours ago, 71chally said: on the DVDs that they are releasing Thanks James,I didn't know about these. As SeaHawk says it was indeed the BARG one. Somewhere in the scrapbook box of 50+ years waiting to be filed I have an article from a 'Commando' comic on Lt Bruce MacFarlane's underwater ejection. That got me interested in the type. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 6 hours ago, 71chally said: I was responding to the post before Sorry missed that bit as I was obviously having a numpty moment! For more reading on the Wyvern see this link: https://about-mythical-creatures.weebly.com/wyvern.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJP Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) When I did my Wyvern S4 build I also found there was a distinct lack of S4 close up photos - I ended up not modelling the vents in question rather than model something incorrectly as I could not find out what they were - here are two photos of Wyverns - one with vents one without - maybe someone will come up with a close up photo one day - the colour photo of the Wyvern with the lower EDSG demarcation line shows a scheme I have never seen modelled and according to what I've read was applied in 1957 to WN324 WN325 & WN326 (4plus & From the Cockpit Wyvern publications) cjp Edited October 18, 2017 by CJP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max89 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, 71chally said: highly unlikely that the older engine would be fitted, even late the TF.2s (VW880 on) had the later engine fitted. By "later engine", you mean the Python 3, correct? Was the Python 3 the last engine that they used in the Wyvern before the fleet was decommissioned? Edited October 19, 2017 by Max89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Yes the Python 3 was the final version and used in late TF.2s to S.4s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 On 18/10/2017 at 10:01 PM, CJP said: here are two photos of Wyverns cjp Nice pictures, interesting to see the soft edged demarkation between EDSG and Sky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJP Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 47 minutes ago, 71chally said: Nice pictures, interesting to see the soft edged demarkation between EDSG and Sky Yes I've never seen that on any Wyvern photos before so maybe they ran out of Tamiya Masking tape CJP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max89 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 Can anyone tell me when the photos were taken? Both are of the same aircraft (WP337) but with different markings. 1. 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Photo 1 I think is the following WP337/378-J of 830 NAS, HMS Eagle, 'Operation Musketeer' (Suez) December It was not yet fitted with a squadron call sign Photo 2 is A Royal Navy Westland Wyvern S4 WP337 about to launch from H.M.S Ark Royal whilst at anchor in the Firth of Forth after a S55 Whirlwind helicopter XG583 is clear after departure http://www.airteamimages.com/westland-wyvern_WP337_united-kingdom---royal-navy_99187.html Hope it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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