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A-4 skyhawk questions ?


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Hello all im in a bit of a confusing spot here ? I have a 1/48th Hasegawa A-4K the “KIWI” version. Its a later square tail that as ive researched was a derivative of The A-4F. Itself an updated “E” if memory and research tell me.

     My question is im backdating this Skyhawk to an “E” and an early one at that used by the USMC in Vietnam. All the parts are in the kit already so not a lot of work. I know it needs the shorter tailpipe, round tail, no chaff dispenser underneath the tailpipe, & no avionics hump on top, but where i get hung up is Antennae's ? Im not sure the correct antennae's for an early “E” type, nor there placement. Is there a go to website or does anyone here know the answer ? Any help at all is always greatly appreciated. 

 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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Thanks @Finn ... Unfortunately I've not found any clear photos. I’ve found three logbooks and a very detailed Sq. History. But all the photo’s are from a distance, washed out, or to grainy to discern all the antennas. I had ultimately decided to build it as a generic A-4E because of the lack of photo evidence.  

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Here is a VMA-223 A-4E and you can see it doesn't have any antenna under the nose:

 

Aircraft_-_Skyhawk__16_Chu_Lai.jpg

 

probably none under the tail as well. 214 may have "borrowed" some Es from 223 as here:

 

http://ganymede.meccahosting.com/~a0008a2d/Blacksheep_History.htm

 

says they didn't get the E until March 1970. This site:

 

http://www.recordsofwar.com/vietnam/usmc/VMA - 214.htm

 

gives official records for VMA-214 but it seems to be down for the moment. 

 

Jari

 

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Dennis,

 

I have the Steve Ginter  Naval Fighters books on the A-4- if you can give me the USMC units you are considering for your A-4E, then I can look through the photos to see what the usual antenna fit is.

 

Mike

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Here is one from VMA-311:

 

12289569_983486241723401_882643619097525

 

note it has the chaff housing but most likely just has a blanking panel in place of the chaff pod. Also when carried, there was another chaff pod beside the hook attachment point.

 

Jari

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THANKS @Finn ... thats the kind of photo that I'm looking for. Yes its a VMA-311 A-4 but it gives me a clear look at the rear of the Skyhawk at Chu Lai at the same time frame. I now have a good idea of whats back there. I couldnt tell from my photo’s. 

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12 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

VMA-214 - Blacksheep ... any other A-4 unit at Chu Lai from Sept ‘65 thru June ‘66. Ive found VMA-223, VMA-225, & VMA-311

Dennis,

 

Not much in the Ginter books in the way of decent detail photos. Looks like there is a black bladed aerial right behind the canopy, and what looks like a RHAW antenna under the nose. I did find some videos that might give you some more details on the Scooters based out of Chu Lai and VN. Best I could do, I'm afraid. Think Tommy T is your best hope.

 

Mike

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKZ-rXxWaY

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUCcMXofapw

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mfdRvzUVtM

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=a4+skyhawk+vietnam

 

Edited by 72modeler
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10 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Mike ... any help is better than no help. At least this thread is generating something. My VA-55 Fury thread dead-ended. Unless someone happens across it ?

I also found some early 'humpless' A-4E photos that showed a matching RHAW antenna under the tailcone- looks to be identical to the one under the nose. I'm not exactly blessed with a lot of Scooter references, I'm sad to admit, as weenie cookers aren't my first love.

Mike

 

Why does it seem we always get hot to build something there's either no decal sheets for, there's no good photos that show all the markings, or exists only as a profile drawing? It's the Curse of the Modeling Gods!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 5:46 PM, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

VMA-214 late ‘65 early ‘66 out of Chu Lai. Most of the official records show only A-4C’s for the sheep. But I've found a couple of logbooks and a history that says E’s were flown. I believe they shared a few E’s with VMA-223. 

That's interesting. I know VMA-224 (also in Vietnam "briefly" with their A-4s around the same period as 214) mostly had C's but there are photos and documentation showing some 224 E's (I was going to include 224 C and E options as decals but they got cut out due to space). I've not heard or seen an E from 214 in Vietnam, granted their coverage is very, very slim compared with other squadrons like 211, 223, or 311 for example.

 

Do you have the bunos from the logbook or what history you're referring to? I've gathered about 40 bunos of their A-4s in Vietnam but they're all C's, I'd love to see E's though. I'm curious if perhaps it's a typo in the source? For example, here's two official captions of two 214 A-4's and both are identified as E's when both are really C's:

 

214a.jpg

 

 

214.jpg

 

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@ziggyfoos One of the online squadron histories I am using as a Source is the “a4skyhawkinfo” site im not sure if its a . Org, or a .com. I could look. If you are with AOA Decals your sources are probably better than mine. As I am using a set of AOA decals for my model. 

     I believe it to be a situation of a borrowed A-4 or A-4’s from another unit. I have one photo which is similar to the two you've shown that shows blacksheep markings on the Droptank but its most likely a plane from a borrowed unit. Like i wrote VMA-223 but “224” has also come up on one photo.  I have read in one source that MAG-12 rotated units out and left there equipment in country. Just reassigning numbers to a new unit. So for example VMA-214 rotated in from Iwakuni taking over the equipment from MAG-15. Then MAG-15 units collected the jets and equipment in Iwakuni. Im very doubtful of this, but stranger things have been known to happen. 

      The histories i have found online, as referenced above to the A4 website. The logbooks I have seen were sadly not definitive. They also were online, the Logbooks were sadly Standard Basic info under the type of aircraft listed generically A-4E and side # referenced. Sadly i don't take a lot of written notes. So unfortunately cannot give you a reference or direction to look in. My search technique is what i call “beat a deadhorse style”. I just continuously search a subject by changing wording and moving words around in my searchline.

     Like i said above i believe It is possible that a pilot was issued a servicable “E” that was available. And not necessarily from the “Sheep” stable. Sorry not much help either way im sure. I know its not 100% accurate. But im not a Rivet counting type when it comes to model building. That is why i had planned on doing a Generic A-4E, still am if you look at my WIP. In fact Im using AOA decals for the A-4C from your #2 vietnam skyhawk sheet. Im just choosing to not put them on an “C”. 

    Again I wish i could give you better help, sadly i feel i cant. 

 

Dennis

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Dennis it is possible that a A-4E was borrowed for a mission but unless the pilot had some prior experience in a E model i doubt it happened as there are a few differences, especially in the cockpit, between the C and E. Also squadrons usually marked their equipment including external tanks, and even MERs and TERs so other units wouldn't "borrow" them.

 

Jari

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@Finn Im Just repeating something I’ve read. Never said it was accurate or correct. Then I proposed a hypothetical situation stemming from what I’ve read. Im Not asking you or anyone to believe it or take it as an absolute truth. 

      The photo’s i am posting are screen shots taken on my apple Iphone. Im not sure where i found them but all credit to those who own them with ZERO direspect intended. I am only using these photo’s for informational purposes. LTMjGsl.jpg

↕️

psAF12C.jpg

Now Finn if you look in these Two photos the Drop tank is clearly marked with the “Blacksheep” logo yet also stamped with VMA-225. So most definitely they did share equipment !

    If you know your squadrons you also know that the “Sheep” have since the late ‘40’s or early 1950’s used code “WE” not “CE”. So that certainly isn't a “Sheep” A-4C yet shockingly carries a “Sheep” Drop tank. 

     Also the Tank shows what appears as VMA-225 and “Blacksheep” logo’s and also what appears to my eye A-4E underneath the logo/legend. Photo is somewhat grainy so i concede it may also say A-4C. 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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Just to clarify, that is a VMA-225 aircraft with presumably borrowed or former 214 tanks used during the ferry flight to Vietnam (all three pylons carry tanks). That sequence of photos are of the MAG CO arriving with 225 at Chu Lai on 1 June 65.

 

Edit....The writing on the tanks are "A4C"

Edited by ziggyfoos
Tank info
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Thanks ziggyfoos for the explanation of the photo’s. No dispute from me on that part. I was just using them to point out that certain equipment was “borrowed” or “shared” between units. As Finn didn't think that was the case.

    As for the writing i’d say you are 99.998% correct. My eyes show a little line in the “C” and my brain screams “E” but I know my brain and don't trust it 100%. So it very likely is “C”. Again sorry i couldnt help you with better info pertaining to your earlier inquiry. 

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I didn't say they never borrowed from other units, i said why they marked them with their squadron's number or insignia. Also another possible reason for the Black Sheep on the external tank, it may have been a zap which happened all the time. You can see larger images of the pic here:

 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/1856164@N20/pool/

 

Jari

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