USS Arizona colour's.

[stevej60]

Hi folk's my eldest built Revell's old 1/436 Arizona a couple of years ago and I've alway's admired it sitting on his windowsill so I've picked an old boxing

up to have a go OOB fault's and all,What's the most agreed on colour's for her now as I believe argument's have raged for year's?

Edited October 5, 2017 by stevej60

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

One thing is certain is that it was painted in MS-1 prior to Pearl Harbour, I don't think the matter has been settled 100% as to her paint job at the time of Pearl Harbour. MS-1 was 5D Dark Grey but with the superstructure above funnel height painted in 5-L Light Grey. Metal decks were in 5-D as well with wooden decks being unpainted. I would recommend Lifecolor USN colours for acrylics and Colourcoats for Enamels.

 

thanks

Mike

[stevej60]

2 minutes ago, Mikemx said:

One thing is certain is that it was painted in MS-1 prior to Pearl Harbour, I don't think the matter has been settled 100% as to her paint job at the time of Pearl Harbour. MS-1 was 5D Dark Grey but with the superstructure above funnel height painted in 5-L Light Grey. Metal decks were in 5-D as well with wooden decks being unpainted. I would recommend Lifecolor USN colours for acrylics and Colourcoats for Enamels.

 

thanks

Mike

Thank's Mike I think my LMS does lifecolour paint's Im popping in there tomorrow.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Hello Steve,

 

I'm blessed to have served as the National Secretary of the USS Arizona's survivors' association over the past 10 years until we officially disbanded last December during the 75th anniversary observances. I've had the privilege of knowing over two dozen of her survivors and former crew, almost all of whom are now gone. There are 5 survivors still alive as of today.

 

I can tell you that this matter will probably never be settled completely to most people's satisfaction. I can also tell you that ALL of the survivors I have asked recall they worked on painting her a lighter shade of blue-gray than the dark gray (Ms-1) while she was drydocked in November 1941 while she underwent repairs from her October collision with the Oklahoma. The extent of the painting varies from survivor to survivor, some claiming the whole ship was done, others claiming they only had time to do the hull and main turrets (the latter actually does seem to agree with many photos). I finally pressed once more last December, and Lauren Bruner gave a weary look and said "Boy, if I had a nickel for every time they put a paint brush in my hand...."

 

I had gone back and forth between the Ms 1 camp and the Sea Blue camp with great frustration and have finally come down in the latter camp, for the reason that they all remember actually applying the paint, even if they don't agree on the exact extent of coverage. I am also finally agreeing with Lauren Bruner that the job was probably incomplete, awaiting the painting of the superstructure, since the mainmast in the wreckage photos look like the Ms 1 jobs on the other ships.

 

Some other details they have mentioned:

-Clare Hetrick told me "They brought it up in 5-gallon buckets in cargo nets; they even had us mess cooks out there painting. They passed it down in pails."

-Lauren Bruner told me it was a translucent color, which took many coats to cover the dark gray; definitely not a fun job for them! 

-Lonnie Cook told me he had to finish his area before he could go on leave; apparently it was a deck area. They were in a hurry to go ashore, so they poured it out and spread it around with mops. The next morning when the area was cleaned/hosed off, a lot of the paint was still not dry since it was so uneven (from the mops) and washed away...and they received a ROYAL chewing-out.

 

In the end, no matter how you paint it, someone will act like a jerk and tell you you're wrong, when the truth is that we will probably never be 100% certain of the exact appearance.

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[stevej60]

Many thank's Andrew,what an honour to have been associated with those guy's,I've been reading up on that fatefull day and the terrible loss of life

on the Arizona alone and I'm now really keen to get building.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Thank you Steve; yes, my mind is blown by my association with them for so long and in said capacity since I don't even have any family who was on the Arizona or even at Pearl; I was just in the right place at the right time and they welcomed me with open arms. 

 

The Arizona represents the greatest loss of life on any ship in the history of the US Navy, and her losses would have been MUCH higher had they been at sea instead of in the harbor with land only a few dozen yards away, and with 200+ of her crew ashore at the time (representing about 2/3 of her "survivors"). I also know very well that other countries have ships with more terrible numbers (the Hood is an obvious one), but the fact that you can SEE the ship as a tomb and visit to pay respects is absolutely mindblowing. It is simultaneously the most beautiful and saddest place I have ever been, and every time I went aboard with her survivors it became even more and more emotional an experience instead of easier or routine.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[stevej60]

Another question strikes  me now the kit has arrived,the aircraft supplied are biplane's what type she operated I have no idea, would by the time of 

Pearl Harbour she not have operated the Kingfisher?If so is the kit not  pre -war configured?

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Yes, that's often a problem; model producers seem bent on the older models for inspiration, which were based on her various appearances in the 1930's. She definitely operated Kingfishers in 1941, 3 in fact. I used to know survivor Glenn Lane, who was a radioman on them (there are a couple of now-well-known photos of him on the wing of one of them attaching the hook to be hoisted back aboard ship). He also told me he thought one of the Arizona's planes had survived over at the seaplane base at the north end of Ford Island, amongst all the other wrecked planes, as they were USUALLY flown there while in port, though not always.

 

The Revell is a strange combination of 1930's and 1941 features....

Edited October 8, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

At the risk of hijacking your thread, this is what I did with Revell's biplanes; I completely rebuilt them to Kingfishers using line drawings resized to 1/426.

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[stevej60]

They look superb Andrew,so what are Revell's bi-planes meant to represent?I posed the question to see if due to these aircraft being included{with

re-working) would a pre war scheme be appropriate to avoid the inevitable controversy!

[stevej60]

I,ve found your build on-line Andrew,looks superb,I'll be referencing it for mine.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Thanks Steve! She actually went through a few different biplanes in the 1930's, starting with Vought O3U's following her rebuild in the early 30's (which I think the kit represents), a later version of the O3U, and finally in the late 1930's the Curtiss SOC. Kingfishers had not been in use for long before her destruction.

 

As far as my build, it went through a LOT of mods in the superstructure to make it purely 1941, including the location of searchlights, which changed positions from time to time.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[stevej60]

5 minutes ago, Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy said:

Thanks Steve! She actually went through a few different biplanes in the 1930's, starting with Vought O3U's following her rebuild in the early 30's (which I think the kit represents), a later version of the O3U, and finally in the late 1930's the Curtiss SOC. Kingfishers had not been in use for long before her destruction.

 

As far as my build, it went through a LOT of mods in the superstructure to make it purely 1941, including the location of searchlights, which changed positions from time to time.

So if I went for a 1930's scheme can you tell me what colour's should she be painted and where the turret top's painted red?

Many thank's .

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Well, pretty much her entire career she was in light gray, until June 1941 when she got the Ms 1 treatment with 5D dark gray. During this time she sometimes had the number 39 on turret 2.

 

The red turret tops is another question...some suggest from photos she had them toward the end of the light gray, but the survivors who remembered the red tops say she got them at the very end, along with the lighter blue-gray. Which leads to another problem, that while photos seem to conclusively prove the colored turret-tops, most of the Arizona's men don't remember them at all...but all 3 men from the aviation division (now deceased) insisted to me that they were there. Makes sense when you consider they were done for the scout planes' sake, to more easily identify which ship is yours. Arizona operated with Oklahoma and Nevada, and while it's easy to tell Arizona from the other two if you're looking carefully at well-focused photos, it's not so easy from the air, especially with weather, turbulence and substandard lighting conditions. Don Stratton and Lauren Bruner insist there were no red-tops, and that they were high up in the foremast for their station and could have seen. Oh, well....you're safe leaving them off for the 1930's.

 

If you're doing Revell's ship as a 1930's, and you want to do it accurately, there are some changes to make; simplest is to leave off the "bird bath" gun station atop the mainmast; this was installed in January 1941. Other issues are removing the two box-like antiaircraft fire control directors atop the bridge area (one port, one starboard) and part of the associated decking. Also checking references for where to place the searchlights (funnel vs mainmast), though I *think* they're already correct for the 30's. Also remove the "splinter shields" from around the eight antiaircraft guns on the boat deck, and the two round gun tubs from the fantail; they were late additions.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

When Glenn Lane was still with us he signed the photo of himself in my "Big Book" on the Arizona; he's the one standing on the Kingfisher's wing. The pilot was killed in the attack, only a few months after this photo was taken. 

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[stevej60]

Superb Andrew many thank's, I hope I can finish this project I've got a poor record of three fails since joining BM as far as ships go,the big Revell

Fletcher and Bonne homme Richard and trumpeter's HMS Zulu.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Oh, I do look forward to seeing the Fletcher!

I do mostly aircraft, but I think you can understand that I HAD to do the Arizona...I keep it in my classroom, believe it or not, which is a bit of a strange sight since I'm a music teacher, but once a year I teach the history of that awful day owing to my "special friends". The kids are absolutely fascinated with it.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[stevej60]

The Fletcher is now with fellow BM'er Spaddad I'm not sure how it's progressing,Bonne Homme and Zulu are now "re-cycled",I'm mainly aircraft orienrated

myself,on the subject of Pearl Harbour I built airfix's new tool 1/48 P-40 and posted December 7th last year.

 

And my favourite WW2 navy fighter,Tamiya's Corsair also in 1/48.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Oh, nicely done!!

Last December was definitely the most emotional of all the pilgrimages I've accompanied the Arizona's survivors on...this one was toughest. Added to that was the fact that we interred the ashes of not one but two survivors into the ship the evening of the 7th. Both were wonderful men, one I was especially close to, and was the one who gave me a fragment of the ship. Very humble man, uncomplicated, pure gold as a human being.

[stevej60]

Great stuff Andrew,I hope to start her this week I'm not doing a WIP but I'll keep in touch on how she's progressing.

[Lous Cannon]

To Andrew D Jolly Rogers Guy,  

I hope this message finds you well.  I just finished reading your thread regarding the final color of USS Arizona and was glad to read it, even six years late.  

 

My wife asked me to build her the Arizona, so I got the Trumpeter kit and began my research, only to find a heated controversy regarding the correct color among modellers and historians.  As my research progressed, I privately hoped that the dark sea grey would win out.  It's a handsome, dark, brooding color for a battlewagon.

 

Alas, though, the dark sea blue won when I read Glenn Lane's testimony that he remembered the color and was annoyed at trying to find storage space for it, as one of his duties was the organizing of the ship's paint locker.  Also, a member of Deck Division testfied that he remembered the blue color because he was in the duty section that Sunday and his job was to finish the blue paint work.  I figure that the remaining unpainted area would be some inconvenient and annoying to reach place, like the tripod legs.

 

Last, was a color photo from the 1950's, in which the US flag is being raised, by three sailors, on the flagpole which had been put on the ship's remains prior to the present memorial being built.  The colors of the photo are consistant with my own memories having visited the memorial twice in the early 2000's.  The water is blue/brown, the trees on Ford Island are green, the land is brown, the sky is slightly overcast blue and white, the flag colors are correct and the faces of the three sailors are recognizably Caucasian.  The parts of the ship still visable above the water at the time are rust brown and weathered dark blue.  I had no choice but to conclude that while most of Arizona's service life was spent in "haze grey" and her last six months were in dark grey, on the day she died, the Lady wore blue.

 

As for the Trumpeter kit, it is very good overall with relatively few errors, above the waterline.  Below the boot, however, the hull is smooth as glass.  I'm working to detail the hullplates and torpedo bilges per my research materials, Squadron at Sea's USS Arizona being my primary source.

 

Thanks for your kind attention. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

The trouble with this subject is modellers' fairly morbid compulsion to portray the ship on the morning it was destroyed. If happy to portray the ship just a week earlier at the very most, you can safely paint it Measure 1 and be confident it's correct.

[bootneck]

1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

...... is modellers' fairly morbid compulsion to portray the ship on the morning it was destroyed.

Well put Jamie.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

12 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

The trouble with this subject is modellers' fairly morbid compulsion to portray the ship on the morning it was destroyed. If happy to portray the ship just a week earlier at the very most, you can safely paint it Measure 1 and be confident it's correct.

 

 I do understand what you're saying, completely, the morbidity of it.  On the other hand, I think for many it's an homage, meant to honor the event that ultimately defines it.  This, we modelers do with all sorts, both the good and the bad.  I can't recall many non-July 1945 builds of the Indianapolis, and I wager most of the builds of the Hood are also from her final appearance.  We also like to build fighter planes depicting them shortly after they score their aerial victories (good for one side only, naturally).  I don't think it's because we like death, I believe it's more that we find ourselves reflecting on tragedy and feel compelled to honor it.

 

For me, I guess it's more personal since I had the privilege of serving the Arizona's survivors who were aboard for her final appearance.  Plus I just think the darker look (either gray or blue) is just meaner, which I like (I know many prefer the peacetime light gray appearance, just simple preference).  

 

[ArnoldAmbrose]

5 hours ago, Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy said:

and I wager most of the builds of the Hood are also from her final appearance.

       Gidday, I've done HMS Hood twice, both 1/600 scale Airfix kits. The first was a number of years ago, OOB which depicts the ship in about 1932 I think. And yes, the second wasn't long ago, the kit modified to her May 1941 appearance.

 

5 hours ago, Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy said:

I don't think it's because we like death, I believe it's more that we find ourselves reflecting on tragedy and feel compelled to honor it.

       I think warfare is one of the greatest tragedies and stupidities of mankind. But sometimes the only way to deal with a bully is to deliver a punch on the nose, whether it be at an individual level behind the bike shed or at an international level which means war. While warships are machines designed and built to kill and destroy, a reason for the choice of many of the ships I've decided to model is to commemorate the bravery and sacrifice of their crews, not the barbarity of war itself. Sorry if I've gone a bit OT.

       Regards, Jeff.