UK Phantoms

[Rodders]

Hi all,

Last Sunday i was at a friend's house for a meal and got talking to an acquaintance who had a brother who flew Phantom's in the navy and she asked if i could find out if anyone does a model of one. I don't know a lot about them in fact i only know we used the F4K and FGR2 i think. i've looked on scalemates but have had no joy so far. I can't remember whether she said it was 66-69 or 86-89(i guess it's 86-89). I need to find out more and i know Airfix are bringing out a new Phantom.

Can anyone help. she was telling me an interesting tale that Uk pilots taught the US pilots at top gun in mirramar but she said the americans denied it.

Cheers.

Rodders.

[Procopius]

The Royal Navy flew the F-4K/Phantom FG.1. In 1/72, Fujimi does one, as did Frog, and Airfix will release one soon. In 1/48, Hasegawa does one.

[bentwaters81tfw]

Yes, it's true that the Fleet Air Arm pilots taught the USN the concept that became Fightertown, or 'Top Gun'. 

[Giorgio N]

Phantoms first entered service in the FAA in 1968 (at least for training, the first and only operational squadron was commissioned the following year) and served for 10 years, with the final aircrafts being given to the RAF in late 1978. The FAA variant was known as F-4K to McDD and as Phantom FG.1 in service. 1986-89 is well outside the FAA Phantom career, 1966-69 may fit with the very early days of the type.

Procopius' suggestions for kits are good, apart from the Frog kit that is the very old Hasegawa mould and is not a real FG.1. The Fujimi kit has been around for 20 or more years but is a very good kit, still modern after all these years. It's currently in their catalogue with FAA markings, but is better bought directly from Japan. The same Fujimi also did the RAF-only FRG.2 (plastic is mostly the same between the two variants, the various boxes include the specific parts and decals)

The announced Airfix kit will be an FG.1, what is known by now hints at a very, very good kit. You may prefer to wait if hunting the Fujimi kit is not succesful.

The Hasegawa 1/48 FG.1 is another kit that while not too recent still holds its own very well against most younger competition, if 1/48 is your scale grab one without hesitation

Edited October 2, 2017 by Giorgio N

[Thud4444]

According to the guys who founded Top Gun, or reestablished it If you want to be accurate, that claim is totally untrue.  

 

http://flitetime.net/brits.html

 

Saying the Brits established Top Gun is like saying the Americans won the Battle of Britain.  Yes there were some there, but they didn't do it by themselves. Until I read this article the only FAA pilot I had ever heard mentioned was Dick Lord.  He was sort of a NAWS  legend. 

[bentwaters81tfw]

4 hours ago, Thud4444 said:

According to the guys who founded Top Gun, or reestablished it If you want to be accurate, that claim is totally untrue.  

 

http://flitetime.net/brits.html

 

Saying the Brits established Top Gun is like saying the Americans won the Battle of Britain.  Yes there were some there, but they didn't do it by themselves. Until I read this article the only FAA pilot I had ever heard mentioned was Dick Lord.  He was sort of a NAWS  legend. 

Referring to that article, the Israeli pilot had an advantage. Story (told to another 81st jock as I stood beside them earlier this year) from a former 81st pilot when stationed at Bentwaters: Israeli 6 day war; Israel losing aircraft at a phenomenal rate. A dozen fresh F-4s rock up from CONUS at BW. Ground crews given the immediate task of removing ALL US insignia, and re-marking with poster paints. As soon as they were refuelled, they departed for Israel. On arrival, they were washed and remarked, and the Israelis changed the engines for J79s they had re-engineered. The new engines did not smoke, and the were about 25% faster than a standard F-4. Israel perfected the Phantom.

Some other interesting tales about Taiwan and Vietnam came out that night too.

Having seen RN pilots fly, I would imagine the USN learned more than how to hold their breakfast, despite claims and counter claims.

Don't forget, we taught you how to land the F4U Corsair on a carrier!

[Giorgio N]

3 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Referring to that article, the Israeli pilot had an advantage. Story (told to another 81st jock as I stood beside them earlier this year) from a former 81st pilot when stationed at Bentwaters: Israeli 6 day war; Israel losing aircraft at a phenomenal rate. A dozen fresh F-4s rock up from CONUS at BW. Ground crews given the immediate task of removing ALL US insignia, and re-marking with poster paints. As soon as they were refuelled, they departed for Israel. On arrival, they were washed and remarked, and the Israelis changed the engines for J79s they had re-engineered. The new engines did not smoke, and the were about 25% faster than a standard F-4. Israel perfected the Phantom.

Some other interesting tales about Taiwan and Vietnam came out that night too.

Having seen RN pilots fly, I would imagine the USN learned more than how to hold their breakfast, despite claims and counter claims.

Don't forget, we taught you how to land the F4U Corsair on a carrier!

 

That would have been the Kippur War in 1973, not the Six day War of 1967. A total of 36 USAF Phantoms went to Israel with operation Nickel Grass to replace aircrafts lost in the previous weeks.

The smokeless J79 was not an Israeli invention, smoke reduction kits already existed on a number of US Phantoms in the early 70's. One way to reduce smoke was (and is on every jet) to increase combustion temo.. and this also increase thrust. 

The Nickel Grass aircrafts retained their SEA camo scheme til around 1980.

 

Speaking of advantages of Israeli pilots, they had a big one in the late '60s: plenty of real jet air combat experience! Something that most other pilots totally lacked..

[Rob G]

@Rodders If you can get an aircraft serial number and date from his logbook, you can do an actual airframe as it was at the time he flew it.

 

I second the Fujimi 72nd Phamtoms. You may find them showing up on eBay at reasonable rates. Sometimes...

[Fernando]

Hi, Rodders,

 

Fujimi Phantoms are good kits, and so far the only ones, until Airfix comes with theirs, which looks to be much better. 

 

In the Fujimi kits, the main problem is the cockpit, that for some reason is very small (I have squeezed an Aires set), and certainly not accurate. Keep also in mind that those mould were improved over the years, and some boxings come with really well done multi piece exhaust cans, but some with only a single piece one that is not bad (still a Spey) but not that good. Some come with the RWR fin antennae, some without. Also, there are two "standard armament sets": for the FG.1 boxings, an "Air Defense suit", while the FGR.2 boxings come with a "GA/recce set". There is some cross over, though (the "Alcock and Brown" boxing, though an FGR.2, comes with FG.1 plastic. That is a very good boxing, with all the modern features (though not RWR), providing you have appropriate aftermarket decals.

 

FErnando

[Slater]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 2:51 PM, Giorgio N said:

 

That would have been the Kippur War in 1973, not the Six day War of 1967. A total of 36 USAF Phantoms went to Israel with operation Nickel Grass to replace aircrafts lost in the previous weeks.

The smokeless J79 was not an Israeli invention, smoke reduction kits already existed on a number of US Phantoms in the early 70's. One way to reduce smoke was (and is on every jet) to increase combustion temo.. and this also increase thrust. 

The Nickel Grass aircrafts retained their SEA camo scheme til around 1980.

 

Speaking of advantages of Israeli pilots, they had a big one in the late '60s: plenty of real jet air combat experience! Something that most other pilots totally lacked..

In the late 1960's, USAF/USN/USMC F-4 pilots were getting plenty of combat experience in Vietnam, although the Yom Kippur War was quite intense for a short time. 

[Giorgio N]

21 hours ago, Slater said:

In the late 1960's, USAF/USN/USMC F-4 pilots were getting plenty of combat experience in Vietnam, although the Yom Kippur War was quite intense for a short time. 

 

Oh, agree with that, no doubt ! What I meant is that Israeli pilots in those years could bring to the table a lot of their own experience. They also had fought plenty of dogfights in those years, reason why I can see how they could bring many ideas to something like what later became Top Gun. Should also mention that the Kippur War came a few years later, the most recent experience then would have been the Six Day War.

Have to say that whenever I read articles like the Telegraph one mentioned it sounds to me like one of those "mine is longer" contest that brings to nothing but makes many readers happy. The telegraph article in any case is so full of inaccuracies that is IMHO not even worth bothering with. The book may be interesting though

[Hook]

On 2-10-2017 at 11:51 PM, Giorgio N said:

One way to reduce smoke was (and is on every jet) to increase combustion temo.. and this also increase thrust. 

 

The "by 25%" does seem a tad on the optimistic side, though... 

 

Quote

The Nickel Grass aircrafts retained their SEA camo scheme til around 1980.

 

These birds, nicknamed "Karpada"'("Toad") for their darker colors, were mainly used in the nortnern region of Israel post-war. The SEA scheme blended in better with the local terrain than the default desert schemed Kurnasses. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Max Headroom]

Note that in 1/48 Scale the Hasegawa  Phantom has been reboxed by Revell (I think as the F-4M/FGR.2 only) and that is generally cheaper.

 

Hong Kong models have also announced a British Phantom in 1/32 scale, but that’s a way off (they have the Lancaster to do first!).

 

Trevor

[Creepy Pete]

3 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Note that in 1/48 Scale the Hasegawa  Phantom has been reboxed by Revell (I think as the F-4M/FGR.2 only) and that is generally cheaper.

 

True, but it's already 12 years ago when Revell reboxed that kit*. They're not that easy to find anymore in shops.

 

 

 

 

*(This sentence looks wrong to me, someone please correct me if it is. English can be hard , lol)

Edited October 7, 2017 by Creepy Pete
Okapi steak

[Selwyn]

Try something like;

 

"True, but it's  12 years since  Revell reboxed that kit."

 

Selwyn.

[Creepy Pete]

Yeah, that might be better. Cheers!

[PhoenixII]

Pete, your English is a HELL of a lot better than my Dutch!

 

Paul

[Rodders]

Hi All,

First thank you for all the advice.

Second i didn't mean to cause any offence to anyone. I wasn't saying we established Top Gun only what my friend told me that her brother trained US pilots. so i'm really sorry.

cheers,

rodders.

[Thud4444]

No offense taken.  Because of the movie, there is alot of  miss information out there. 

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

No offense Rodders 👍

[Rodders]

Hi all,

I was given this photo last sunday:

The lady who's brother flew Phantoms i think took this from his aircraft. I'm trying to find what model Phantom it is so as i've said i can look which model company makes it. I don't know which carrier he flew from but if i can find his squadron i may get more info. i can't read the serial number.

Can anyone help as i've said i am no Phantom expert.

Cheers,

Rodders.

 

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

26 minutes ago, Rodders said:

_{Hi all,}

_{I was given this photo last sunday:}

 

_{The lady who's brother flew Phantoms i think took this from his aircraft. I'm trying to find what model Phantom it is so as i've said i can look which model company makes it. I don't know which carrier he flew from but if i can find his squadron i may get more info. i can't read the serial number.}

_{Can anyone help as i've said i am no Phantom expert.}

_Cheers,

_Rodders.

 

 

 

That is Phantom FG.1 XT859 "725" of 700P IFTU (Intensive Flying Trials Unit), the unit tasked with trialling the Phantom before entry into general service.

This aircraft later enjoyed a long career, serving with 892 NAS and then being passed on to the RAF, where she served with 111 Sqn. until being scrapped in 1992.

As written in the posts above, you can build a model from the 1/72 Fujimi kit (but you need one without the RWR on the tail, Fujimi issued separate boxes for aircrafts with and without this feature) or the 1/48 Hasegawa kit (also reboxed by Revell).

[71chally]

It's a F-4K Phantom FG.1 of 700P Sqn, who did the trials and working up of the type for squadron service from Spring 1968.  The serial number might be XT859, but can confirm later.

Though service flying was only undertaken from Ark Royal, some of the trials flying was from Eagle.  The carrier in the background above is Hermes.

 

Pest kit available at the moment is the Fujimi Phantom FG.1 boxings, the Airfix one is due out anytime now I believe.

[71chally]

Ideally the best existing kit for the non RWR tail is the Fujimi F-4K Yellowbird boxing.  http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Fujimi-British-Phantom-F-4K-Yellow-Bird-H-19-Parts-Sealed-/362132276512?hash=item5450c40520:g:4pgAAOSwCY9ZsBbj

This was the updated version of the kit with more detail added and the original fin top design, as seen in your picture.

Their other FG.1 boxings are fine if you are handy at modifying the fin top, and the older boxings are still pretty good.

 

There is a thread in the Rumormunger section of the forum about the upcoming Airfix kit, that will mention what options will be available.

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by 71chally

[Hook]

2 hours ago, 71chally said:

Their other FG.1 boxings are fine if you are handy at modifying the fin top

 

Or you can ask around for a spare Hasegawa fin cap - all their modular Phantoms in  1/72nd come with at least four types. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre