A6M5c

[Giorgio N]

The late war cannon armed variant of the Zero, am I right in saying that it was only built by Nakajima ?

If so then they should all have the demarcation between upper and lower colours going from the wing trailing edge to the horizontal tailplanes leading edge, right ? Pictures of this variant I've seen show this feature but I'd like to be sure that every aircraft at least left the factory this way.

Going through the various posts here my understanding is that if they were Nakajima built then the cockpit should be in a light sage green approximating 34277 (edit: should be 34255) and the upper surfaces should be in the lighter black green.

Would lower surfaces be in the more typical Nakajima light grey or would they have changed to the Mitsubishi style by late  in the war ?

I'm starting the 1/72 Hobbyboss kit to try and get back into gluing plastic bits together, while it's a simplified kit I'd still like to get the colours kind of right...

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide some information !

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Giorgio N

[72modeler]

Giorgio,

 

I have the Hasegawa A6M5c, kit D23. The two markings choices in this kit are for the 203rd and 252nd squadrons. The upper surface color listed is Gunze H36 (IJN Nakajima green) and the underside is listed as Gunze H61 (Mitsubishi green) The lower paint demarcation is shown in the diagram for both as sweeping up in a gradual curve from the wing trailing edge to the horizontal stabilizer. I think Nick Millman would be your best bet for a more definitive answer and perhaps some FS close matches. Sorry I can't do better, but IJA/IJN colors are definitely not my area of expertise. (As if any areas are!)

Mike

[Giorgio N]

Thanks Mike, it's still good info ! That both the options proposed by Hasegawa have the same scheme reinforces my idea that all the 5c had the same. Hobbyboss proposes two different schemes for their 2 options, not sure if this is a mistake on their side or what

[Nick Millman]

A6M5c was built by both manufacturers but reportedly only about 91 by Mitsubishi.

 

For colours it will depend on what paints you prefer to use and whether you prefer the model to look factory fresh or showing age and weathering. Bear in mind that what Hasegawa call "Mitsubishi Green" is in fact a fairly standard IJN Grey. H36 Dark Green is a "non-aligned" (primary) Gunze colour which I haven't tested but which looks ok online - a dark bronze green - and certainly appears better than some of the IJN Dark Green hobby paints. The standard IJN Green in the Gunze range is H59 and is something of a hybrid.      

 

In general terms the upper surface colour was darker than many depictions and models show it - a true black green - whilst the under surface colour was a warm, slightly brownish grey not well served by hobby paint ranges. With exposure the upper surface paint became more olive looking and the under surface paint chalked to a lighter concrete-like grey.

 

Nick  

[SoftScience]

I can't speak about colors, but lines of demarcation were not always the sweep up to the tail. Some evidently went straight back from the wing.

 

 

[Seawinder]

To SoftScience: From what I've read, Nakajima-built aircraft had the swept up demarcation. Mitsubishi-built aircraft the straight demarcation.

 

To Nick: First off, very glad you're back online. A lot of us were quite worried a couple of months ago.

Second, can you clarify the current understanding of the grey or greys used for A6M5 under surfaces? Jim Lansdale at some point posted information stating that Nakajima used a color labeled J3, to which he gave FS approximations of 26307 or 36314 (very similar). He stated that Mitsubishi used a color called J3, approximately matched to FS-36357. And/or, I think various people (him included?) have stated that Mitsubishi continued to use the early-war grey-green-amber (often approximately matched to 16350) seen on the A6M2 etc. Is any of this still accepted as accurate?

 

Thanks,

Pip

[Giorgio N]

Thanks for the great information Nick ! Now the situation becomes a bit more complicated unfortunately... the aircraft I'd like to build is the well known one piloted by Takeo Tanimizu. Now there are pictures (even found some on the web) of Tanimizu standing beside an aircraft marked in the same way as the A6M5c proposed by Hobbyboss and these pictures show clearly the swept up camo demarcation. Problem is, can I be sure that this is indeed the same aircraft or maybe it's a different variant he flew in ?

Regarding the green, I have a bottle of Vallejo 897 Bronze Green that is a very dark green, with no olive. It's stated to be close to 34052, that I've seen proposed as a match for the Mitsubishi dark green. Judging from online pictures of Gunze H36, my bottle is a bit darker but not too dissimilar (of course with all the caveats of judging colours on a computer etc.). Now however if my aircraft is a Nakajima built one I guess I have to change the green, if so should the Nakajima be lighter or would such a dark green still work ?

For the lower surfaces my original plan was to prepare a mix like I did when I built the Airfix A6M2, again based on Vallejo's paint, in particular their 986 Deck Tan, that is a brownish grey... but now I have the same doubts voiced by Seawinder: did the colour stay the same ?

 

Softscience, thanks for the picture ! I'm not sure if it's a 5c though, can't see the guns. If it is, then it would be one of the 91 Mitsubishi built aircrafts mentioned by Nick

Edited October 3, 2017 by Giorgio N

[Nick Millman]

29 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

Thanks for the great information Nick ! Now the situation becomes a bit more complicated unfortunately... the aircraft I'd like to build is the well known one piloted by Takeo Tanimizu. Now there are pictures (even found some on the web) of Tanimizu standing beside an aircraft marked in the same way as the A6M5c proposed by Hobbyboss and these pictures show clearly the swept up camo demarcation. Problem is, can I be sure that this is indeed the same aircraft or maybe it's a different variant he flew in ?

Regarding the green, I have a bottle of Vallejo 897 Bronze Green that is a very dark green, with no olive. It's stated to be close to 34052, that I've seen proposed as a match for the Mitsubishi dark green. Judging from online pictures of Gunze H36, my bottle is a bit darker but not too dissimilar (of course with all the caveats of judging colours on a computer etc.). Now however if my aircraft is a Nakajima built one I guess I have to change the green, if so should the Nakajima be lighter or would such a dark green still work ?

For the lower surfaces my original plan was to prepare a mix like I did when I built the Airfix A6M2, again based on Vallejo's paint, in particular their 986 Deck Tan, that is a brownish grey... but now I have the same doubts voiced by Seawinder: did the colour stay the same ?

 

Softscience, thanks for the picture ! I'm not sure if it's a 5c though, can't see the guns. If it is, then it would be one of the 91 Mitsubishi built aircrafts mentioned by Nick

Hi Giorgio

 

In the words of the song "Don't worry, be happy!".

 

The Hobbyboss schematics are a bit iffy so follow the demarcation on the photo. As it happens I have a Vallejo paint deck and 897 looks ok, maybe just lacking a little sea green. Your under surface proposal looks ok too. 

 

I'll reply to Pip shortly but I think you are safe to carry on! 

 

Regards

Nick

[Nick Millman]

5 hours ago, Seawinder said:

To SoftScience: From what I've read, Nakajima-built aircraft had the swept up demarcation. Mitsubishi-built aircraft the straight demarcation.

 

To Nick: First off, very glad you're back online. A lot of us were quite worried a couple of months ago.

Second, can you clarify the current understanding of the grey or greys used for A6M5 under surfaces? Jim Lansdale at some point posted information stating that Nakajima used a color labeled J3, to which he gave FS approximations of 26307 or 36314 (very similar). He stated that Mitsubishi used a color called J3, approximately matched to FS-36357. And/or, I think various people (him included?) have stated that Mitsubishi continued to use the early-war grey-green-amber (often approximately matched to 16350) seen on the A6M2 etc. Is any of this still accepted as accurate?

 

Thanks,

Pip

 

Hi Pip

 

Thanks for your concern and kind comment. 

 

You can knock yourself out over the various permutations and FS values attributed to the under surface colour, sometimes inconsistently over the years.

 

The single fixed standard was reportedly J3 Grey/Grey-Green and that designation didn't change until February 1945 when it was re-designated as 2-6 which was an exactly similar colour. The different FS values are more variations on a single theme, driven by variance in aircraft/paint manufacturer, batch, age, weathering and, it must be said, different perceptions of colour. Trying to sort them out is akin to trying to pin down the differences between, say, Avro and Handley Page applied Dark Earth at different stages of the war.  

 

The IJN HQ Proposal for Revisions to Aircraft Planning Procedures (Hikoki Keikaku Yoryosho Kaitei-an) of March 1944 included a table of standard colours and codes from Kariki 117 which specified the upper surface paint colour to be D1 An Ryokoshoku (dark green) and the lower surfaces J3 Hairyokushoku (ash/grey green). That was a change in terminology but not designations from earlier (1942) documentation where D1 was described as deep green black colour and J3 as simply grey. However, such inconsistency in terminology is rather typical. Some samples of the late war green paints appear close to the slightly greener D2 (green black colour) so that has been cited as standard for the A6M5. It has also been suggested that Nakajima applied paint to the D1 standard and Mitsubishi to D2 - or vice versa! But with all the variance factors involved that begins to get academic and again the evidence from extant samples is inconsistent. The difference between D1 and D2 was addressed by Tamiya when they released the lighter and greener XF-70 Dark Green 2 (IJN) to supplement their earlier XF-11 J.N. Green. Personally I think that XF-70 is a little too light and green to represent D2 but notions of scale come into it. 

 

The actual J3/2-6 standard has been variously perceived over the years, everything from being similar to FS 36307, through a neutral grey with a faint yellowish undertone, to FS 16350. The standard chip is now a little darker than FS 26307 (the original paint had lustre and was not dead flat) but applied paints tended to be warmer, more yellowish with a fugitive green undertone (caused by black and ochre pigments) and chalked/bleached to lighter neutral or slightly blueish greys. Stored away from light the original paint samples have become slightly darker and browner.  FS 26307 vs 36357 is within the up to 5.0 variance typical of wartime applied paints and 16350 when lightened moves towards the same ballpark (bearing in mind that in FS '6' is the designator for Gray).

 

For those who like dabbling in oils the character of the paint colour can be replicated by mixing titanium white with a little black and yellow ochre. The resultant "putty" colour is immediately "right" but difficult to describe!  

 

Regards

Nick

 

    

[Giorgio N]

Thanks again Nick, very interesting and useful info !

I'll go ahead with my plan then. I may add some "greener" green to the upper surface colour.. but I may just leave it. I'll be bulding the kit for one of the group builds here, so will show pictures of the model in progress. Not that there's much to show being a HB easy kit... in any case the Zero is IMHO one of the best of the series in terms of detail, don't know about shapes but to me it seems to compare reasonably well with the Hasegawa Type 54/64 I have in the stash (and that I'll have to build at some point too).

 

[Seawinder]

Really fascinating and enlightening, Nick; thanks so much for taking the time to type it all down! One really new thing (for me) that I take away from it is that we don't necessarily need to continue slavishly using different hues for Nakajima- and Mitsubishi-built planes. at least A6M5s.

[Nick Millman]

18 hours ago, Seawinder said:

Really fascinating and enlightening, Nick; thanks so much for taking the time to type it all down! One really new thing (for me) that I take away from it is that we don't necessarily need to continue slavishly using different hues for Nakajima- and Mitsubishi-built planes. at least A6M5s.

Hi Pip

 

I should have mentioned that when Army and Navy colour standards were revised in February 1945 D1 was not included. Instead D2 was re-designated as 1-2 with the Army colour # 27 (blue green colour) incorporated as a class II similar colour. Whether that reflected an existing change in IJN practice or a change going forward is unknown but it appears nevertheless that paint to both D1 and D2 standards was in use until the end of the war. The 1-2 standard chip is close to FS 14056. D1 is closer to FS 14077 but darker. 

 

Pigments in those very dark green paints were variously chromium oxide and chrome green mixed with black. Chromium oxide which in mass tone is a dull pea green pigment tends to a more robust "green" appearance as the paint ages and weathers whereas chrome green is made from a mixture of prussian blue and chrome yellow. With age and exposure the chrome yellow gradually decomposes the blue pigment, resulting in a shift towards a more brownish appearance, often becoming darker as well (counter-intuitive to the idea of paint fading with exposure). It is apparent that during the war little distinction was made between the two pigments with both being referred to simply as "chrome green". Both could be used to match a single colour standard but the resultant paint travelled in slightly different directions once applied and subject to exposure.  

 

Regards

Nick

[Giorgio N]

I have a couple more questions on this subject, one about the camo scheme and one about the paints used...

On the camouflage scheme, did the green wrap around the leading edge ? I've seen indications on instruction sheets that the green was carried around the leading edge of the wing and then on the undersurfaces for a short distance. The same seem to have occurred on the wingtips (an annoying masking here). I've seen a couple of pictures of real aircrafts taken during wartime that seem to confirm this, but I also saw pictures showing only the leading edge covered in green and nothing around the wingtups. Was this another feature depending on manufacturers ?

On the paints, were the fabric covered surfaces painted using paints of the same colour or should I differentiate these surfaces using a different paint ? I remember having used a different paint on the A6M2, was this carried over to the 5 ?