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Where was Lemon Yellow used in the RAF?


JackG

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5 minutes ago, JackG said:

There is listing of BS381c paints here, and was wondering about the two yellows.  There is Golden Yellow which I assume was for markings (roundels, leading edge, etc.), but what about Lemon?

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?133958-RAF-Paint-Numbers

 

regards,

Jack

 

is the yellow used by the yellowjacks

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Off hand, the only use of Lemon Yellow I can think of was on the training bands on Hunters, and that's only because I had thought them to have been the GSE Golden Yellow shade. ISTR it was mentioned in the painting guide to the 1/32 Echelon Hunter vac form, of which I have two, still unbuilt.   

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Not that I no of

20 minutes ago, JackG said:

Thank you Stu, but that is post war.  Anything for the use of Lemon during WW2?

 

regards,

Jack

 

I haven't read the relevent books so can't say for certian but from what I know the only yellow in use was what we call trainer yellow. the slightly orangey hue yellow for example as per humbrol 24 as used as an underside colour on prototypes for example

Edited by PhantomBigStu
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A guess, but could it have been used as a section colour on wheel-hubs, propeller-hub, vertical fin etc. on biplanes, when they still did that sort of thing (as in Red Section, Yellow Section, Blue Section and Green Section as divisions of Flights)?

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

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12 minutes ago, Gorby said:

I'm not really well versed on these matters, but weren't trainers, target tugs and prototypes painted in lemon yellow, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

 

they were painted trainer yellow, which became BS381c356 the colour after lemon yellow post war

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There is no Lemon Yellow in the reprints of wartime Ministry of Aircraft Production colour charts that I have seen, nor have I seen any mention of such in those Air Ministry Orders that have been published.  Therefore it will not have been used for any overall scheme or significant markings.  There may have been some local use of other yellows for individual artworks, of course, but not using official paints.

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Right, now a more general question (which may answer why Anotni included Lemon in the 43/44 chart).  Is BSC 381c a government created set of colours used by or specifically for the military?

 

regards,

Jack

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BS381C was created by the British Standards Institute.  The colours are in general use and do not apply specifically to the military or other government agencies.  For my old day job I had to visit a man who provides refinishing paints to, inter alia, the motor trade.  He advised me that there is a 10% tolerance on BS colours and, I suspect other standards exhibit a similar leniency on manufacturers.  The only use for Lemn Yellow that I can think of was for safety and servicing markings on RAF wearing Hemp/Camouflage Beige camouflage, which is very definitely post-World War 2.

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The short answer is no, but depends when you are talking about.  Before WW2 the key military colours appeared in the prewar BSC381 1931 and were used prewar.  During WW2 the military colours - Army, Navy and RAF - were completely separate from British Standards.  Postwar the establishment of BSC381C led to the inclusion of reduced numbers of military colours in the standard, which was for general UK use not only the military.

 

Antoni listed a 1944 BSC colour list.  This is not however the colour list used for RAF camouflage and markings in this period, the paints and colours for which were controlled by the Ministry of Aircraft Production and included a wider range of camouflage colours, but not all colours listed in BSC381.  It is worth pointing out that paint used on aircraft were to a different chemical formula to those used elsewhere because of the need to be smoother, lighter, and have greater durability over a wide environmental range.  Like many colours in the BSC381 1931 range, Lemon Yellow was not produced to this standard, unless someone can find evidence otherwise?

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a05126-supermarine-spitfire-box.jpg

 

Scheme number 2 here calls for humbrol 99 - lemon

 

No52 Operational Training Unit RAF Hawarden - Flintshire - Wales - Mid 1941

 

Hope that helps...

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A slightly bigger picture of the lemon - not trainer yellow - nose - circa 1941 - as per Airfix - fairly new tool - can't see them getting it wrong so its good enough for me.  It would be interesting to find the source of the research on this very funky trainer though.

 

A05126-B_1425555560.jpg

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2 hours ago, BIG X said:

It would be interesting to find the source of the research on this very funky trainer though.

 

a4430418-41-AR212-2.jpg?d=1321822357

 

 

On 25/6/2013 at 17:56, Chris Thomas said:

I hope nobody has loaded their airbrush with white just yet. I have just received, from Steve Brooking, a photo of a page in James Storrar's logbook (later owner of Spit IX YT-Jas, Mustangs JAS etc) who was also an instructor at 57 OTU. On it was pasted the photo which started this thread (probably the original source?) with the following handwritten below.

”My yellow nosed Spitfire, the only one of its kind, used to frighten pupils. It looked exceptionally smart and the girlfriends never failed to recognise it".

CT

 

though worth considering that these were trainers, and the original yellow could have darkened, or it was a mix..

On 23/6/2013 at 23:29, John said:

The ORB for 58 OTU talks about "jumpers" painted to resemble Luftwaffe fighters and used by instructors to train their students in dogfighting techniques. At least one student pilot was killed while trying to evade a "jumper" and flying into the ground.

I have always assumed that, at the very least, spinners and rudders were painted either red or yellow.

John

 

 

 

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Colour No.55 (later 355) Lemon (not Lemon Yellow) was a Ministry of Transport colour used for road signage. BS 381 was utilised by all government ministries and departments.

 

For aircraft paints the RAF continued to use the DTD specifications and MAP colour names long after the war. Those were eventually incorporated into BS 381 or deleted as required. The plotting and evolution of the changes is a major piece of work requiring careful study and correlation of successive post-war Air Publications and BS 381 editions but does not concern the war era or the period 1946-52.   

 

Nick

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8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

a4430418-41-AR212-2.jpg?d=1321822357

 

 

 

though worth considering that these were trainers, and the original yellow could have darkened, or it was a mix..

 

 

 

Hi Troy - fantastic evidence - I knew in my heart of hearts that the modern incarnation of Airfix where likely to be right with the colour scheme.  The explanation of the reason for the 'custard nose' makes a lot of sense too.  I had heard of training accidents at Hawarden during the war - with aircraft going down over the North Wales hills and mountains.

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16 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

a4430418-41-AR212-2.jpg?d=1321822357

 

 

 

though worth considering that these were trainers, and the original yellow could have darkened, or it was a mix..

 

 

 

They weren't trainers in the usual sense. They were fighter aircraft in use by training establishments but the expectation was they would be finished to conform to current Fighter Command requirements. 

There were evidently some special markings applied to meet specific operational needs of the OTU but the majority would be just like front line aircraft and indeed fighter OTUs were allocated fighter squadron "shadow" identities and required to provide local defence using aircraft flown by instructors. 

A big OTU like 58 was required to provide 2 squadrons from its resources. 

John 

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One possible trap here: the tail band is shown as a light blue rather than the officially correct Sky.  This is common for the period, and the colour is believed to have been MAP Sky Blue.  Be careful if you are consulting a prewar copy of BS381.  There is a Sky Blue in there, but it is much darker than the adopted wartime pale colour derived by the camouflage section of the RAE at Farnborough, and initially intended for unmanned target aircraft.  It is fair to add that some people believe these bands to be painted from badly-mixed attempts at Sky: in which case they are remarkable in being consistently lighter than the Sky undersides and appearing in colour photos as a close match for Sky Blue.

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On 20/09/2017 at 7:03 PM, stever219 said:

BS381C was created by the British Standards Institute.  The colours are in general use and do not apply specifically to the military or other government agencies.  For my old day job I had to visit a man who provides refinishing paints to, inter alia, the motor trade.  He advised me that there is a 10% tolerance on BS colours and, I suspect other standards exhibit a similar leniency on manufacturers.  The only use for Lemn Yellow that I can think of was for safety and servicing markings on RAF wearing Hemp/Camouflage Beige camouflage, which is very definitely post-World War 2.

 

I think it was used for yellow warning markings on other low viz schemes too (e.g Phantoms) and I've seen reference to it in other Defence Standards

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2 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

I think it was used for yellow warning markings on other low viz schemes too (e.g Phantoms) and I've seen reference to it in other Defence Standards

Air Publication 119A-0601-1E of June 1969 (-1971) specifies 356 Golden Yellow for all such markings and colour schemes. No mention of 355 Lemon although aircraft subject to atomic flash might be required to have markings in "suitable pale colours" . Don't know about later Hemp/Camouflage Beige schemes. 

 

Nick 

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10 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

Air Publication 119A-0601-1E of June 1969 (-1971) specifies 356 Golden Yellow for all such markings and colour schemes. No mention of 355 Lemon although aircraft subject to atomic flash might be required to have markings in "suitable pale colours" . Don't know about later Hemp/Camouflage Beige schemes. 

 

Nick 

This was the 1990s low biz air defence greys scheme 

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