my first attempt at handmade Zimmerit, looking for feedbacks

[cambridge]

so, this is not going to be a walktrough as usual, i just wanted to get some feedback on a particular aspect of my project, wich is zimmerit.

 

i've never done a zimmerit coated tank before and i was very courious about it. I didn't want to use photoetched parts or buy an already coated tank, i feel it looks more autentic if you apply it as a paste, watching the original pictures it's the way it was done and between the way it was applied and the battle wearing the zimmerit coating never looks as good and as regular as the one you can obtain with photoetched parts.

So i've bought this AFV kit and i've worked on it ( wich is a pity cause the kit is beautifully detailed and many details like the weildings and the cast texture are lost under the zimmerit.

i've used a plastic putty to cover it and using a saw blade i've added the zimmerit texture  on it. 

 

Some places ( like the sides of the turret ) are left un-zimmered in order to make it easier to apply parts over them ( that's where spare tracks are ) and won't be visible when everything is put in its place

 

now i'm at the point i've coated it and primed, before i move on with painting i just wanted a feedback on the result i've achieved so far, if it's an ok result, if there's something to fix, if the scale is right, if it's totally wrong, well you know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by cambridge

[fewr9fkr9595]

You know what that aint that bad for a first attempt mate well done, We are all our own worst critics aren't we. 

 

To make it better a few points in general is just to try and tidy it up a bit around all the small hull and turret fixings where there are some little bits of paste that are standing out. These would have been cleaned off etc. As some of those little chunks would be 'hand-sized' when scaled up. Also anything that's standing proud above and over the ridges try and shave off. 

 

Eg on the edges of the idler tension adjustment and crank adapter starter cover plates (bottom left, centre and right on rear hull plate), turret gun trunnion mounts/lifting lugs, edges of drivers visor etc.  

Also the vision ports on the turret sides need som paste on, or a suggestion. A thinner putty or mr surfacer 500 is good for these. 

 

Good job! 

[Badder]

I will be facing the same dilemma in the future as I too have a Tiger I and Tiger II in the stash. I have the Tamiya zimmerit 'decal' set for the Tiger I, but I haven't yet seen anyone else use it. (I expect they have, but I haven't actually searched the forum for it) So, seeing your putty method gives me some idea of the results I can expect if I try likewise.

 

I'm not knowledgeable on the scale accuracy of zimmerit, but I'd say your 'spacing' looks about right to me. (When I get to that stage, I will count the columns across the front armour on a real Tiger to check the accuracy on that count)

 

I'd say that your zimmerit looks more realistic that the PE stuff, with a nice bit of variation and 'bad' application here and there. The only area I'd personally not be happy with is at the rear of the hull where it gets a bit messy for my liking.

 

I will question the lack of zimmerit on the glacis though. I seem to remember some argument over whether it was zimmerited or not, and that the final consensus was that it was. But my memory isn't what it once was.

 

Overall though, I'd say you've done a good job, and I will have to try the putty method out myself.

 

Rearguards,

Badder 

 

 

 

[Arachnid]

I think that's good,and looks the part,when I do mine,if it's half as good as yours, I'll be happy

[Etienne]

52 minutes ago, cambridge said:

now i'm at the point i've coated it and primed, before i move on with painting i just wanted a feedback on the result i've achieved so far, if it's an ok result, if there's something to fix, if the scale is right, if it's totally wrong, well you know.

Hello,

 

being no specialist of german ww2 armor, I'll give you a purely "esthetic" point of view : your zimmerit looks very nice and pretty realistic, with its imperfections and flaws 

 

For a first attempt, you did pretty well !!

 

E

[cambridge]

1 hour ago, Badder said:

I'd say that your zimmerit looks more realistic that the PE stuff, with a nice bit of variation and 'bad' application here and there. The only area I'd personally not be happy with is at the rear of the hull where it gets a bit messy for my liking.

 

I will question the lack of zimmerit on the glacis though. I seem to remember some argument over whether it was zimmerited or not, and that the final consensus was that it was. But my memory isn't what it once was.

 

actually i don't know if it was the right choice or not but on the rear i made it messy "on purpose" compared to other surfaces. on the left and right edge is lacking cause it's where the two mud fenders will go and on the instruction sheet that edge was shown as un-zimmered.  and around the exhausts i figured out that considering the extreme heat it was plausible that chuncks of the covering would simply come off, so in my intention it was an attempt to realism, don't know if it works or not. 

 

for the glacis i had opened this discussion right on that subject:

 

i figured out that the best option was to not apply it and eventually apply it later, instead of applying it and decide later to remove it. using pure logic i would put it there too ( that's where the transmission is after all ) but i still have to find a picture where you can see it clearly on a tiger. i agree that it can be light, overexposition and bad quality of the pictures but there's a strange consistency in that. 

 

1 hour ago, Badder said:

1 hour ago, Badder said:

I will be facing the same dilemma in the future as I too have a Tiger I and Tiger II in the stash. I have the Tamiya zimmerit 'decal' set for the Tiger I, but I haven't yet seen anyone else use it. (I expect they have, but I haven't actually searched the forum for it) So, seeing your putty method gives me some idea of the results I can expect if I try likewise.

 

it was actually much simpler and quick to make than i anticipated. You just use a blade from a hobby saw ( i've used one for cutting metal, wich i think gave better result ). 

you spread the putty on the surface, doesn't even have to be even. than you pass the blade over the putty, you move it to the side, than a bit up, than to the side, than a bit down, than to the side, and the blade marks its teeth in the putty and spreads it even at the same time. It works wonder and it's very fast, and at least to me it recreate that feeling of the zimmerit you can see in pictures, that was never, tidy and perfect but a bit messy and different from one tank to another. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by cambridge

[cambridge]

2 hours ago, Tony Oliver said:

You know what that aint that bad for a first attempt mate well done, We are all our own worst critics aren't we. 

 

To make it better a few points in general is just to try and tidy it up a bit around all the small hull and turret fixings where there are some little bits of paste that are standing out. These would have been cleaned off etc. As some of those little chunks would be 'hand-sized' when scaled up. Also anything that's standing proud above and over the ridges try and shave off. 

 

Eg on the edges of the idler tension adjustment and crank adapter starter cover plates (bottom left, centre and right on rear hull plate), turret gun trunnion mounts/lifting lugs, edges of drivers visor etc.  

Also the vision ports on the turret sides need som paste on, or a suggestion. A thinner putty or mr surfacer 500 is good for these. 

 

Good job! 

i think you're right and i will attempt some of the fix you suggest ( the vision ports, damn, how did i forgot them? )  using the tamiya putty this time wich i think would work better on small details.

The putty i've used would be a mess on small details, it was almost like a glue, wich would work actually better than expected on large flat surfaces but it would be a mess to polish fine details. 

 

among the other things i've realized after the priming that i must have used a saw blade with a clogged tooth space cause at one point there's a pattern of a tooth missing that repeats itself. good thing is it will almost completely disappear under the mudguard

Edited September 20, 2017 by cambridge

[fewr9fkr9595]

@cambridge I will put up some pics later of how I have tackled glacis zimm in the past.   

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Really looks good to my eye. Ive only done it once myself (disaster). I now use the tank to practice airbrushing camo (german mottle/distemper).

[Kris B]

In general that is good looking Zimmerit. 

[Badder]

Interesting discussion on the glacis zimmmerit.  I have always assumed that Tamiya and others know what they are talking about when they say it was present.

 

BTW which putty did you use exactly?

 

Rearguards,

Badder

[cambridge]

4 hours ago, Badder said:

Interesting discussion on the glacis zimmmerit.  I have always assumed that Tamiya and others know what they are talking about when they say it was present.

 

BTW which putty did you use exactly?

 

Rearguards,

Badder

this one:

https://www.super-hobby.it/products/Wamod-putty-for-plastic-models.html

 

[Gremlin56]

Check these out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQAcagNh2I8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMU9EibyWXk

[fewr9fkr9595]

Sorry its late but as promised:

 

Been in storage for about 3 years from when I got sick of making tigers.

Spec - Dragon kit. 

White zimm is tamiya two part epoxy putty. Pattern made with roller tools. Putty doesn't etch into plastic so chips off quite easily for damage. Putty has a long period of being workable. 

 

So the reason for pics - The glacis plate. This was done with rollers too, but a layer of mr surfacer used instead. This makes is visible from overhead but it disappears from a low angle like man height period pictures. Narrow window to work with it. Too soon and its everywhere, too late and you can't make ridges in it. 

 

 

Above -

 

Vision ports done with mr 500 too. 

 

Low angle - just a hint of it. Will be reduced more once painted and weathered. 

 

Cheers, Tony

 

[cambridge]

wow, that is a very neat zimmerit coating. where does that turret zimmerit pattern come from and how did you do it? 

[fewr9fkr9595]

12 hours ago, cambridge said:

wow, that is a very neat zimmerit coating. where does that turret zimmerit pattern come from and how did you do it? 

Thanks pal. 

 

The zimmerit on the hull was done with the lion roar roller tool and is the regular tidy pattern where you can make out the individual rows quite easily. Nearly all tiger 1 hulls featured this pattern. 

 

The turret was done to match period pics where some later steel wheel tigers had messier and larger rows of zimmerit where the columns aren't as defined.

As if the worker with the trowel was making much larger swooping strokes left to right in a zig zag pattern whilst pasting the turret side. 

This can be seen on several late tigers from units in Normandy to Italy. 

Perhaps there was a rush one particular month to finish turrets to go on ready hulls due to a delay in raw materials or if the turret part of the factory was bombed etc. Or maybe they didn't bother making the rows as neat due to less chance of mines being placed there. Who knows? 

 

Anyways this pattern was replicated using the roller gear from a wilkinsons venetian blind (other brands are available), the part that bites into and holds the string when you raise them up. I got this tip from an armourama forum thread. 

 

Technique- You start a row, then for the next one you roller over half of what you have already done to blend/mesh the ridges into each other. Repeat as necessary. Note that the mantlet and around the gun trunions they still normally had the smaller, tidier pattern. 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

[cambridge]

i need a second advice. i didn't feel it was the case to open another discussion so i'll bring up this instead. I've moved on and painted the camouflage, i wanted some feedback about it, before i move on with filters, decals and weathers and i can't go back. The idea is to represent a Normandy Tiger, possibly the famous Wittmann 007 ( the kit include such decals ).

 

The color scheme on the instructions paper was too messy to follow, i've looked online but apparently there's no reliable source or picture and everyone does it in a different way, so i went my way. Since it's my first attempt also at painting a 3 colors german camouflage i would like to know if you think this looks good, makes sense and historically is plausible, if there are errors or there's room for improvement.

 

So, here's the pictures ( by the way i've added zimmerit to the glacis in the end ). Soldiers and tools are just dry-fitted and with just a basic paint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by cambridge

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, cambridge said:

Since it's my first attempt also at painting a 3 colors german camouflage i would like to know if you think this looks good, makes sense and historically is plausible, if there are errors or there's room for improvement.

 

https://panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

 

Quote

Late-war, 1943-1945

On 18 February 1943, all vehicles were ordered to be painted in a base coat of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 (dark yellow). Only small pieces of equipment were to retain their previous color. On top of the Dunkelgelb base coat, stripes of Rotbraun RAL 8017 (red-brown) and Olivgrün RAL 6003 (olive green) was applied.

The Rotbraun and Olivgrün paint was delivered to the units in tins, which were thinned with any available liquid. It was then applied by the maintenance section, which allowed the pattern to match the terrain. This also resulted in a wide variety of patterns, from elaborate sprayed camouflage, to patterns that look like they were smeared on with a broom and rag.

To standardize and improve camouflage patterns, on 19 August 1944, it was ordered that all vehicles were to be painted at the factory. The pattern, Hinterhalt-Tarnung (ambush camouflage), still used a base color of Dunkelgelb, with Rotbraun and Olivgrün stripes. On top of each color, small dots of the other two were applied. This pattern was created to give the appearance of the sun shining through forest foliage.

In mid-September 1944, vehicles started leaving the factories in their red oxide primer, with only sparse camouflage. On 31 October 1944, more elaborate camouflage in Dunkelgelb, Rotbraun and Olivgrün began being applied at the factories over the red oxide primer. Furthermore, Dunkelgrau could be used if Dunkelgelb was unavailable. Despite this order, there has never been any evidence that Dunkelgrau was actually used.

On 20 December 1944, it was ordered that a Dunkelgrün base coat, with a hard-edge pattern of Dunkelgelb and Rotbraun should be used.

 

find a photo you like to use as a pattern, and work from that. The bold text above should explain the wide variations seen!

 

You may know the information above, but just  in case you don't.

 

interesting article here

http://wargamesobsession.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/late-war-german-armour-hinterhalt.html

 

the zimmerit looks good.

 

[cambridge]

thank you very useful link.

 

on the subject of the particular 007 tank is there any direction i should follow or the only thing known is this picture that doesn't show anything about the camouflage?