Spitfire Mk 1 - Browning muzzle patches

[Pauls9cb]

I'm remodelling a 1/48 scale Tamiya Spit 1 that I made some years back before I was bitten by the detail bug. I've reached the point where I'm about to simulate the red patches that were placed over the MG ports to reduce the icing effect of flying at angels 20+ on the Browning's operation. The Tamiya kit seems correctly to place the muzzles of the outer pair of Brownings forward of the leading edge, most noticeably on the No 3 guns in each wing with the No 4 guns almost within the curve of the leading edge. My query is how the No 3 gun was screened from the cold temps in the way that Nos 1 ,2 and possibly 4 would have been with the canvas patches that  the ground crew normally applied. Anyone know? Many models I've seen seem to gloss over this with the No 3 guns apparently positioned as with the other guns. I've been unable to discern from contemporary pics and movie clips what the reality was in this respect. Too anoraky maybe? Anyone know?

 

In a similar vein (almost), I've always wondered what happened to the spent cases and linkages from the fuselage MG 15 macine guns in the Bf 109 E series. The ammo boxes that held 1,000 rounds per gun wouldn't seem to have been a logical place to receive the ejected cases/linkages for a variety of reasons, mainly the potential for jams. I've failed to discover any ejection outlets for these items. I've seen a drawing of a Friedrich where these items end up in a compartment somewhere under the breaches of the guns, presumably accessed and emptied after each op via some panel between the wing undersides. There is a square panel beneath the wing centre section on the Emil series which may have been for that purpose among others. Anyone got any thoughts or detail on this?

All the best

Paul

[johnd]

I believe that the gun muzzles only projected beyond the wing leading edge on very early Spitfires, before the time when the patches were introduced. Depending on which Spitfire you're portraying, therefore, the Tamiya kit may be wrong or you don't need the patches.

 

John.

[gingerbob]

WiP isn't the best place for these questions, but on the Spitfire, Tamiya represents the early guns, with "flash hiders" or whatever they're properly called.  These were gone by early war, so after that just nice smooth patches were possible on all guns.

[Pauls9cb]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the input. The subject of my current project is an early Spit that was shot down locally in July 1940. I've found a British Pathe clip which shows the relevant squadron at Kenley before it was posted elsewhere. The movie clip is understandably a bit blurry but, as you suggested, the No 3 gun position seems to be covered over. I guess the Tamiya references for their kit must have been based on drawings of very early production runs. In any case, a bit of delicate surgery seems to be in order.

Cheers

Paul

[Troy Smith]

59 minutes ago, Pauls9cb said:

I guess the Tamiya references for their kit must have been based on drawings of very early production runs.

the Tamiya  references were not good,  as the kit has a fair few errors.   I don't recall if anyone ever pinned down the wrong drawings  used though.

1 hour ago, Pauls9cb said:

I've found a British Pathe clip which shows the relevant squadron at Kenley before it was posted elsewhere.

Links to this would be of interest

 

What the subject?

 

As an aside Paul,  have you any idea of the aircraft letter of the 92 Sq Spitfire that landed on Lewes racecourse?

Flown by "Wimpy" Wade

http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Wade.htm

Quote

On 19th August Wade shared in destroying a Ju88 but his Spitfire, R6703, was hit by return fire and he made a forced-landing on Lewes Race Course. The aircraft overturned and Wade was trapped upside down in the cockpit
but fortunately the aircraft did not catch fire.

 

Co-incidentally, 

Quote

On 3rd April 1951 Wade was killed when he crashed at Ringmer, Sussex, whilst testing the P 1081.

For those not familar with the area, Ringmer is 4 miles from  Lewes.

cheers

T

 

[Pauls9cb]

Hi Troy,

I'm sure I've seen a picture of Wade's Spitfire upside down on Lewes racecourse but I can't find it at the moment. I thought it was in that Battle over Sussex book which Andy Saunders co-authored many years ago bUt I checked (as I know you will have done) and it's not in there. From memory the pic is from the rear 3/4 view with the right side of the fuselage showing but I can't recall if the a/c code is visible which I doubt. As you know, pics of crashed British a/c are rare and the search for individual a/c codes normally frustrated. Squadron ops books tended not to show this sort of detail although I've found some squadrons did show these later in the war e.g. Belgian 349 Squadron.

I face a similar quandry with my current project which is FO Donald "Butch" Taylor who was probably Helmut Wick's 14th abschuss while flying with the rest of 64 Squadron on convoy patrol over the Channel on 17th July 1940. Taylor was wounded but force landed his a/c near Hempstead Lane outside Hailsham and was taken to Princess Alice Hospital in Eastbourne. I'll probably end up taking pot luck on the a/c code which is a shame but seems unavoidable unless something else turns up.

The video clip I mentioned I've been viewing is at https://britishpathe.com/video.spitfires-kenley-fighter-station. I looked at it earlier today but every time I've tried to view it again, the link has timed out. It's an interesting series of clips if you manage to open it, showing 64 Squadron Spits and Hurris of 615 Squadron, both of which were based at Kenley until the latter part of August 1940 when they were moved north.

I'll keep looking for the Wade pic and let you know if it turns up.

All the best - Paul

[Troy Smith]

Thanks  Paul

a bit more googling turned up this I'd  not seen before, which maybe of interest?

 

Quote

A 602 Squadron Spitfire lies in a field after crashing during a wheels-down emergency landing at Iford Hill near Lewes, East Sussex in October 1940. Having run through a hedge, the Spitfire flipped onto its back after the wheels hit a small ditch. Although quite badly damaged, the aircraft was repairable

from  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4385842/Photos-reveal-clean-operation-Blitz-struck-Britain.html

so I don't know if the caption is  even correct.

I don't have Battle  Over  Sussex, but I have beeen lent it,and no pic.

 

More later

T

[Newbie(kinda)]

Flash surpressers...the sticky out bits on guns 3 and 4. Seen on pre-war Spits but, if I remember correctly (and I'm sure Edgar must have covered this somewhere) they were removed by the time (or at the time) the war started. That is, no Spits (out on a limb, I know and ready to be corrected) had them at the start of hostilities and all 4 leading edge gun apertures were covered over with red tape. Quite why Tamiya have included them is a mystery (to me at least) given that their Mk1 kit doesn't cover a pre-war version. Hope that helps...