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WWI Whites were they really Persil bright?


Beardie

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On 13 September 2017 at 1:20 PM, Beardie said:

That is the big issue, modern acrylics and acrylic inks as used in decal production are very white as the acrylic vehicle is clear without tint where all the previous types of paint and dope had a very noticeable tint.

 

Of the three types of white that are readily available Titanium white iis the brightest but was only commercially available from 1916 and, at that point, it was considered an 'industrial grade' as the purity wasn't very good meaning the pigment had a greyish, muddy tone to it. Lead white has a naturally warm, creamy colour to it which would have been accentuated by the oil or dope used in the paint and finally zinc, while reasonably pure white, is very transparent so has poor covering power and also does not form a strong reliable paint film prone to severe cracking and drying.

 

I think I have now clarified in my head that bright white doesn't really fit the bill. All I have to do now is figure out an appropriate way to tone down my decals

 

There were more types of white pigment available then than just the three you have mentioned, including zinc sulfide and barium sulfate (blanc fixe) to make lithopone and other compounds or co-precipitated forms. Lithopone could darken with exposure to a more greyish white depending on the proportion of zinc sulfide used. The quality of white pigment varied with opacity translating into cost and manufacturers like DuPont marketed different grades or "seals" of white. Titanium dioxide whites did not become common until after the war in the 1920s. One of the ways manufacturers overcame yellowish whites was to add very small amounts of ultramarine to their formulae, resulting in colder whites. For example a typical recipe for ordinary white enamel was 7 lbs of zinc oxide to a quarter ounce of ultramarine blue in a mix of copal, dammar and French oil varnish. Industrial documentation from that era reveals a huge range of formulae and recipes for paints and finishes of all types with colours often graded by quality (there were five commercial Venetian Reds each with its own formula, becoming cheaper as the red pigment decreased and the extender increased).

 

The pigments could be mixed by weight as dry powders, often combining pure white pigment with terra alba, gypsums or China clay to reduce cost, extend quantities and improve opacity, and then added to aeroplane dope. Or they could be manufactured in a paste form to add to the dope. Out of direct sunlight the finish would have yellowed or ambered over time just like the old modelling varnishes. The presence of sulfide in the paint can cause darkening almost to black. 

 

Even titanium dioxide varied in quality and "whiteness" dependent on manufacture and towards the end of WW2 the German titanium oxide pigment was of poor quality and yellowish hue.

 

White pigment is actually transparent and the white appearance is achieved by the difference in refractive index between pigment and medium to effect the best light scattering and reflection.

 

Nick

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interesting, Nick. what do we know about what was widely used at the time? 

 

the problem we've got right now is most 'bright' whites we've got available are titanium based, and as you say wouldn't look anything like period titanium whites. 

 

all of this strongly suggests they whites weren't super bright. 

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Indeed Nick I read you loud and clear.

 

If I am understanding you correctly you are saying that the white used could have a number of different tints but bright white is probably the least likely although it may well account for the brighter appearance of the factory painted tails and insignia.

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Here in the Cyclades, the traditional method for mixing up one's white paint to paint one's house, barn, apothiki, wall, etc, would be to mix up your white wash paint as one would, then, ahem...hmmmm...relieve oneself into the mix.  Apparently the urea has an effect on the pigment, rendering it's brightness longer lasting.  Like I said, this is traditional, but painters still do this for exterior paint.  No lie...I have seen it done.  

 

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Beardie said:

Indeed Nick I read you loud and clear.

 

If I am understanding you correctly you are saying that the white used could have a number of different tints but bright white is probably the least likely although it may well account for the brighter appearance of the factory painted tails and insignia.

I don't think that zinc white based paints of the time would have been any less white - or brighter for that matter - than modern 'Chinese white' watercolour paints. The snag is that the basic white pigment (mostly) went into an aeroplane dope or varnish with its associated yellowing or ambering issues. However I don't believe that would have yellowed the colour so much as to appear cream simply because in Orfordness Report E30 of February 1918 on 'Daylight Camouflage of Aeroplanes' it is mentioned that in trials in France with two  BE2cs painted in new experimental camouflage colours one of them had the white portion of the roundel overpainted in cream, presumably to tone it down. If the roundels had already appeared cream that should not have been thought necessary?

 

My "go to" source for WW1 British aircraft colours is Bruce Robertson's 1996 book (although I have Owen Thetford's 1943 book on the subject too). Mr Robertson provides typical Methuen, FS and BSi values for the various dopes in use but not for the whites VW1 and VW3 which he depicts in the book as "white" white (e.g. not cream!). The white dopes were described as Zinc Oxide but whether pure or extended for economy/opacity I couldn't say.  

 

Nick

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Ah but here we have perception again, what was considered white at the time? The colour of paper or the colour of snow (If snow is it under a grey sky or in sunlight) or the colour determined scientifically. What colour was cream at that time? Was the cream pasteurised, thick, thin what type of cow? :D Without a colourimeter it is hard to set the boundaries, then of course there is metamerism to be taken into account and the differences in the appearance of colours depending on how they are applied, the surface it is painted on, whether it is glossy and smooth or matt and the light source it is viewed in.

 

Perception plays such a huge part in these things that, like the other discussion we are back at personal taste.

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The big thing, and the question that started this debate is - Do any of the whites that 'might' have been used at the time of the Great War resemble the bright stark white of modern acrylic decals?

 

Humbrol Satin White enamel looks pretty white when it is applied, albeit with a very slight brownish caste from the linseed oil but, when a decal is placed on top of it you see a gulf between the stark white of the acrylic decal ink and the white of the enamel paint.

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  • 1 month later...

A very interesting discussion indeed. In the past I have used a different approach to try to shift the bright white on decals. I simply make an artists oil mix. I start out with white and then VERY SLIGHTLY tint it with tan, yellow, or something else to create the off white that I want to use. Then I carefully take a small fuzzy like applicator and lightly apply it to the white area that needs to be toned down. Then I try to very carefully try to remove the overflow that might wind up on some of the other colors. After it dries and I spray on an over all dull coat ( or whatever topcoat is called for ). It does a pretty good job of blending things in. Keep in mind that whenever I do this the coverage may not be fully complete on all of the white because it is lightly applied but that adds to the effect. Maybe sometime you can experiment by applying a decal from your spares box to a spare wing and give it a try.           Bob H.

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Who would have thought that white could be so controversial!

It isn't.

In todays world everything , even proven facts ,are now open to anyone to interpret however they wish, this is because of the 'no criticism' rule that some how came into existence.

Worrying about how white is white or the different shades thereof is a bit of a folly. Especially in the context of WW 1 markings , which are proven to be a minefield of contention.

When I did my Biff markings I used Testors Acryl aircraft grey FS16473 , as white would be unrealistic:

IMG_3398.jpg

You can see a little contrast between the linen and the markings. I was happy with this and moved through the color selection without worry .

I agree that at 1/32 scale the markings are better represented by masking and painting. Lots of toy cutters available now and circles and straight lines are easy enough to get done.

If you hafta use decals , then mix up a translucent 'dirty white ' and downshade the whites , apply it in thin layers until you get what you want.

 

The realisation that there are many ways to achieve the desired work helps to allow the modeller to have an open mind towards new techniques (of which there are few ) in model building.

 

Edited by krow113
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The difficulty I described at the start of this thread is only when the colours of the decals don't match with the background colours even in comparison with a B&W photograph like white borders around balkenkreuzen on a white aircraft where there is no demarcation evident in the original photograph. Generally I don't worry too much about accuracy of colours on my WWI aircraft but the contrast in this situation was way too obvious which led me to wondering. I trust Wingnut Wings on the quality of their reseach in regards of decals and colour schemes etc. I did contact Richard Alexander for his thoughts on the matter and he said that he was perfectly happy with the bright whites of Wingnut Wings decals being accurate enough for the period so it all boils down to personal taste in the end.

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