Bashar Al Squarehead's Syrian (& Iraqi) Armour

[badger]

Hi Sarge

 

Cool - didn't know okb did an etch set for the trumpeter kit (have one in the stash) and in doing so discovered they also do one for the trumpeter m-26 I am researching and planning at the moment.

 

Will be ordering these when funds allow

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Zedval bits arrived.....The word 'exquisite' would be the first to spring to mind! 

 

Also a Modelcollect T-72 'Syria' from Black Mike Models.....Recommended, on both fronts. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I think our little friend is back, this time clearing Eastern Ghouta of 'Moderate IEDs':

 

 

I've decided to do this T-72 too (T-72A or T-72M what do you guys think?   ), it hasn't received the insane armour upgrades of its Adra or Shafrah bretheren and it doesn't have the increasingly common Sarab jammer, but it does have a Viper thermal sight.....This one's been an absolute stalwart of the fighting, featuring in several videos:

 

 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

OK, so here's the deal.....I've not been idle on this front although there's no progress to see, I've been learning about T-55s and the 1/72 kits thereof. 

 

The news ain't great. 

 

Keep in mind that this is, by far, the world's most produced tank.....85,000+ in the Warsaw Pact nations alone, that doesn't include a single Chinese Type-69 (T-55 with 'Made In China' written on it in crayon)! 

 

Trumpeter's offering is AFAIK only buildable as a T-54 and even then it has pieces missing.  ACE's kits are.....Well, errrrr.....'Challenging'!  Yes Challenging is a good word.    So Revell's new kits are probably still the best bet for all the wonkiness described above.....But, they seem to be of East German (IIRC) versions.  It seems I'm going to have to attempt to extract (and/or modify) the most suitable parts from the five kits in my inventory to make one accurate(ish) Braille T-55 and naturally none of these parts will fit together without considerable adjustment. 

 

How does this keep happening to me? 

 

Modelcollect, if you happen to be reading this, you might want to consider making a new 1/72 T-55.....I suspect it would be quite popular! 

 

[badger]

39 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Modelcollect, if you happen to be reading this, you might want to consider making a new 1/72 T-55.....I suspect it would be quite popular! 

 

Yes please!! (After the Chieftain though).

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Thread repurposed.....Because:

 

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Very nice Sgt. 👍 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

So.....Actual plastic, some of it even cut:

 

Tracks (2 parts each)

 

Tub (3 parts)

 

Partial Upper Hull (5 parts at this point)

 

Cradle (11 parts)

 

Finished (in under 24hrs)

 

Figured if Trumpeter's recent Braille semi-QB kits are good enough for a genius like @AndyRM101, they're probably more than good enough for me! 

 

I actually really enjoyed this little kit, the engineering is just superb, almost everything glues from the inside and what seem to be horrendously oversized sprue attachments become useful locating points as the build proceeds.....Don't try to second guess the designers here, check the parts in the steps ahead and you'll see what they've done.  I removed a couple of these sprue gates completely and then had to fill the holes left by their absence, the only filler used on the vehicle itself IIRC.

 

The missiles provided are just awful, I was sore tempted to order resin replacements for them, TBH I was constantly tempted to tweak this model with aftermarket parts of one kind or another, but I managed to resist and stuck to my plan.....A fast (really fast by my standards), no-frills OOTB build of a simple Trumpeter kit. 

 

The next step.....To make it look something like this:

 

 

Which may, or may not, be the main reason I tagged Andy Moore earlier in this thread.....Help me Andy M Kenobi! 

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

13 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

 

Interesting vehicle, but whats the point of the camouflage ? Those missles reflect so much light because they're white it defeats the purpose of camouflage ? 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Beats me TBH. 

 

I actually prefer the vehicle at the top, firstly it will be a lot easier to do and secondly the mixed missiles look cool, but I have better detail pictures of the second one.....Mine will probably fall somewhere between the two, the main colour is a dead ringer for Tamixa XF-62 IMHO, so that's easy enough, the sand colour looks a bit warmer than XF-60, but XF-59 would be too pink, so some mixing will be required.  It's the weathering (and possibly some paint-chipping) that I'm most concerned to get right, although the weathering on these isn't quite as strong as I had expected.

 

[Andy Moore]

I prefer the camo on the second one, and to me that one would be the easier of the two to reproduce. I guess you could add the mix and match missiles to either version unless you're trying to absolutely match the photos.

Doesn't look like there's much in the way of chipping on either, more general grubbiness and dust. I think I'd blend in some dark brown here and there for the dirt, then add some subtle streaks to the sides with a dust or rain marks wash, then blend the whole lot with a thin misting of Tamiya buff or something similar.

 

Andy

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I reckon I'll wind up with a mix of the two, mostly because I've never managed to copy a camo-scheme exactly right yet! 

 

New project for the stack:

 

 

This one won't be a quick build.....Firstly the parts have to get here, from the four corners of the earth, then I have to make them fit together! 

 

Hopefully this build and the T-55 Enigma, which I've started but not photographed yet, will free up two Trumpeter T-55 turrets, possibly for combination with various parts from the two Revell T-55 kits in the stash and the rebuilt Trumpeter mine-roller to get me back to where I started this thread! 

 

 

 

[Old pro]

ZDon't really come on this part, how goes the war? Firstly the bad news, the Iraqi T 72 is an A and not an M, without the additional armour plate on the Glacis, it can be done from the  Revell kit but you will have to thin the additional armour so it sits flush. If you are still after Tankograd stuff, you can order it from the Tankograd shop, pay via PayPal, he will send an email with the total inclusive of postage, you can order with confidence, I have used it many times and never had a problem. Both Revell T 55s are the same kit with just extra parts for the AM2B being the difference, both have Rmsh tracks, a quick fix would be to use the Ace turret on a Revell kit not perfect but a whole lot better, the other bits are a mishmash, the KTD rangefinder is really large, the horse shoe armour is off because the shape of the turret is wrong, the front glacis armour is missing the cut out in front of the driver.

The left one is a turret of my own creation, but using the Revell bits, the right one is the Tankograd turret and parts, you can see how different they are in shape, I have also trimmed the glacis armour in front of the driver to its correct profile.

the good news is the last picture is of a T 54, which could be built from the trumpeter kit, the barrel would have to be sourced extra as would the wheels if you wanted to do it exact.

 

if you have any questions just ask

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Cheers fella, lovely pair of T-55Ms you have there. 

8 hours ago, Old pro said:

Firstly the bad news, the Iraqi T 72 is an A and not an M, without the additional armour plate on the Glacis

If you mean this (Syrian) one:

 

 

That's not bad news at all.....It's marvellous news and a Modelcollect kit will be added to the stash to build it.  Come to think of it, I may well already have a suitable glacis in one of the Modelcolect kits in my stash, they have so many spares!

 

I've got a selection of suitable bits coming for 'Old Smoky' the T-54.....Spider wheels, a T-54A turret and a bendy looking gun are included in the Black Dog set.  A much better turned main gun, co-ax and antenna mounts are on their way from Zedval.  I already have OKB's Track and also their etched set for the Trumpeter T-54/55.

8 hours ago, Old pro said:

if you have any questions just ask

Do I know you from 'Missing Lynx' or 'On The Way!'?

 

 

I'm guessing this would be another T-72A?

 

 

[Old pro]

Nah, I meant the other one 😂😂 page 2 from the fighting in Mosel, the Syrian ones are Ms and so you would be alright with the Revell kit. Not seen the etch set from OKB, still fiddling with the old Part etch sets☺️

 

And yes you would know me from both🤔

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Dammit!  I thought I was getting good at identifying the various subclasses of T-72. 

 

Now I feel like Bellingcat again. 

 

EDIT - Hold on a minute.....I didn't think Iraq ever bought the T-72A, surely they would be T-72Ms (as opposed to M1s)? 

 

 

[Old pro]

Ooops my mistake😳 Looking closer at the photo, the first tank is a T 72M with smoke mortars, the second is an M without smoke mortars, the third is an M1 with the added glacis armour, the turret shapes are different between the M and M1 sometimes difficult to see when the mortars are added but you can just make out the flatter front face of the turret behind the mortars with only a slightly better view of the one second tank, another good indicator is the lack of a slight overhang just under the mortar wiring.

 

aaahh bellingcat, the government run misinformation page😂😂😂

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That T-72M vs T-72M1 distinction is the real issue isn't it.....That's where Revell and ACE both got it wrong, sticking a T-72M turret on a T-72M1 hull, both of them further exacerbating the problems by giving it the shape of a T-72 Ural turret in plan view (and in Revell's case squashing it a bit too). 

[Old pro]

It all goes back to the Tamiya 1/35th kit, Ace I know used it as a reference when making theirs, Revell  legitimately or otherwise copied it aswell, while it is an M1 (supposedly) the turret is a sort of inbetween the two, in plan form an M but profile of a M1. Modelcollect did a better job on the turret shape but still has the cutout on the glacis which gives a hard to get rid of seam and to make it worse, with the ERA version, modified the brick size to fit this plate, making them shorter, luckily the T 80BV and T 64 kits don't suffer the same problem.😤😀

[badger]

Whilst I can usefully contribute precisely nothing to this discussion as I know nowt about the various marks of T-72 etc I was wondering if anyone reading this had a decent set of plans for a T-55 (Model 1958) as I have Trumpeter, Revell and Armo kits and am happy to throw them in a blender to produce this but can't seem to find two sets of plans that agree on anything.

 

Sorry for derailing this thread

 

All the best

 

Ben

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Not a derailment at all Ben, it's something I'd like to see too. 

 

On my T-55 Enigma the only change I've made (apart from tearing off fenders etc.) is to rescribe the right hand engine access panel on the deck.....If you visit the OTW! page for the Trumpeter T-55, you will see the necessary change in that area.  The Trumpeter deck is a bit of a compromise in this area (but closer to a T-54) and TBH the hatches in question are largely hidden by the turret unless it's turned 90⁰, so you could just leave it and nobody would ever know unless you showed them.   

 

@Old pro  I'm not convinced either turret matches the T-72M in plan, they both look more like the T-72 Ural turret to me in that aspect. 

 

[Old pro]

27 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

 

@Old pro  I'm not convinced either turret matches the T-72M in plan, they both look more like the T-72 Ural turret to me in that aspect. 

 

Same difference, the M added no armour to the turret, there was no armour improvement over the standard Ural, the M1 finally bought it up to T 72A levels, although in Russian tanks the laminate armour on the glacis was incorporated into the glacis and not added on as in the Czech or Polish builds.

 

2 hours ago, badger said:

Whilst I can usefully contribute precisely nothing to this discussion as I know nowt about the various marks of T-72 etc I was wondering if anyone reading this had a decent set of plans for a T-55 (Model 1958) as I have Trumpeter, Revell and Armo kits and am happy to throw them in a blender to produce this but can't seem to find two sets of plans that agree on anything.

 

Sorry for derailing this thread

 

All the best

 

Ben

The M Hobby plans are about the best, another set appeared in military modelling years ago and are quite accurate ( not the Vasco Barbic ones, although they are pretty good) Hubert Chance did some that are acceptable, in certain areas.

If you need some let me know, I have plenty lying around 😂😂

[badger]

3 hours ago, Old pro said:

The M Hobby plans are about the best, another set appeared in military modelling years ago and are quite accurate ( not the Vasco Barbic ones, although they are pretty good) Hubert Chance did some that are acceptable, in certain areas.

If you need some let me know, I have plenty lying around 😂😂

I have a fair few military modelling magazines - will try and dig through but anything you have would be gratefully appreciated - Pm inbound.

 

All the best 

 

Ben

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:36 PM, Old pro said:

Same difference, the M added no armour to the turret, there was no armour improvement over the standard Ural, the M1 finally bought it up to T 72A levels, although in Russian tanks the laminate armour on the glacis was incorporated into the glacis and not added on as in the Czech or Polish builds.

Cheers fella, you've finally cleared it up for me (I think):

 

Export Type          Looks Like                             Features/Differences

T-72M                    T-72                                       No secondary aperture for optical rangefinder on T-72M. 

T-72M1                  T-72A                                     Dolly Parton & Glacis Plate

T-72M2                  T-72B                                     Super Dolly Parton, sight for TLATGM

 

Does this look about right to you? 

[BallsBuster]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Cheers fella, you've finally cleared it up for me (I think):

 

Export Type          Looks Like                             Features/Differences

T-72M                    T-72                                       No secondary aperture for optical rangefinder on T-72M. 

T-72M1                  T-72A                                     Dolly Parton & Glacis Plate

T-72M2                  T-72B                                     Super Dolly Parton, sight for TLATGM

 

Does this look about right to you?  

Sorry, but no.. from my limited knowledge on the issue the list should look closer to below.

if you are talking about Soviet export modifications there were

-T-72 (mods E and E-1) - basically a retarded T-72 

-T-72M (mods E-2, E-3, E-4) -basically retarded T-72A but with less armor and not laminated turret cheeks. Simplified FCS and different ammo options as well although externally not noticeable. 

- T-72M1 (mods E-5, E-6) - looking a bit like T-72A of later series.

-T-72M1M - roughly corresponding to T-72B1

- T-72C - again roughly T-72B but with wind sensors and extra weapons options(like Svir complex) and REA. Went on export from 1987.

The above is very rough understanding of Soviet exports... I am not sure anyone was granted a license to produce T-72B outside Russia hence T-72M2 (produced in Slovakia) should be closer to T-72A