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100 Years #2 - Fairey Swordfish


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Hi All

 

Squeezing a time window in here

 

On 9/7/2017 at 12:52 AM, stevehnz said:

I could suggest finding a photo of the one you want to do however, finding a photo of the Esmond machine is reputably up there with the Holy Grail & rocking horse manure. :(

Steve

Thanks Steve, so I can do it either way and no-one will ever know :wicked:

 

The cockpit has received some extra struttage

DSCF5501.jpg

 

DSCF5504.jpg

 

And looks slightly less fictional.

 

Ok, so I went and cut the windows out too

DSCF5506.jpg

 

They are right on the front of the cockpit floor, so the offending corners were removed

DSCF5507.jpg

 

It should look ok in there, as it'll be dark, and small, and hidden behind a wing brace

 

DSCF5508.jpg

 

DSCF5511.jpgDSCF5511.jpg

 

 

Where the control cables emerge from the rear of the fuselage also received some attention. with the small bulges being cut from a cotton bud stalk

DSCF5509.jpg

 

DSCF5510.jpg

 

I'll blend them in a bit so they don't look so angular, but no time this time :waiting:

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

Edited by ProfSparks
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Pretty much I reckon Steve. I've seen enough discussion over the years to make me believe that there is no certainty as to whether Esmonde's squadron's machine were finished in standard camo or black undersurfaces for what was expected to be a night action. There are proponents for both. In Airfix's Channel Dash giftset, they gave a colour call as an all over night finish. Some discussion on this scheme from earlier threads. here & here. If this doesn't confuse you you're doing well, but as you said, who can criticize.

Steve.

 

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May I jump in?

A friend showed me his reference books which had it that all over night finish was not in use on Swordfish until after the Channel dash operation

However; my neurosurgeon is Eugene Esmonde's nephew, [and is named for him] and in casual conversation with him during checkups he says that family photos show the Swordfish all over 'very dark',  ie no lighter camouflage showing on the upper parts

And there again Esmonde's Swordfish might have been repainted just before the operation

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All

 

Just another quickie.

 

Reading through the many varied accounts of this aircraft (initiated by stevehnz and Black Knight, thanks guys :S), there seems to be a consensus that at least some of the aircraft was painted black.

However, there is enough indication on both sides of the "Underside vs All over" black as to make neither finish definitive :worms:.

 

One thing is for sure though, this aint it!

DSCF5522.jpg

 

(Apart from this showing a Mk.I, whereas the actual kit parts are Mk.II :violin:)

 

Anyhoo, I'm going to plump for the "Just the underside repaint" camp (as there's a shed load of greys to use with this multi boxing), and it looks more interesting than all over plain black.

 

Here's a convenient scheme, looks like it's from A04053 ( the bottom right corner), but the actual kit doesn't support this assumption?

a04053a-layout-b.jpg

 

Quiz time again...

 

Where would this differ from the potential 825 Squadron repaint? I'm thinking mostly about the waistline, the roundel type and position, the code letters size and location, and the tail flash?

 

Is this as close as I'd hoped or should I look elsewhere?

 

 

But enough pontification.

 

The internals turned out ok with a lick of paint, they'll be straightened out and tidied up once installed

DSCF5516.jpg

 

DSCF5517.jpg

 

DSCF5518.jpg

 

DSCF5520.jpg

 

DSCF5521.jpg

 

I'll raise the pilot seat too.

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

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10 minutes ago, ProfSparks said:

Quiz time again...

 

Where would this differ from the potential 825 Squadron repaint? I'm thinking mostly about the waistline, the roundel type and position, the code letters size and location, and the tail flash?

 

Is this as close as I'd hoped or should I look elsewhere?

 

Roundel type first; the type we call C & C1 did not come into use until July 1942, so the ones in those schematics are right

 

The rest? your guess is as good as anyone's.

I would agree with you on just the lowers being black [although I did mine overall black ~ time to do another version I think]

A low demarcation as in the Taranto raid scheme

Roundels under the wings, maybe, maybe not, ~ I would go for not

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Air Ministry order of July 1941

II.   Markings of British Aircraft

5. (i)  Upper surfaces.- Red and blue roundels are to be carried on the upper surfaces of the wing tips.

(ii)  Side of fuselage.- Red, white and blue roundel surrounded by yellow ring is to be carried on each side of the fuselage.

(iii)  Fin markings.- Vertical red, white and blue stripes (with red stripe leading).

(iv) Under-surfaces.- (a) Roundels are not to be carried on the under-surfaces of operational aircraft, except day fighters, which may carry red, white and blue roundels.  On black under-surfaces of day fighters the roundel is to be surrounded by a yellow ring.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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On 07/09/2017 at 7:42 AM, ProfSparks said:

However, from the same thread comes

Fairey Swordfish II HS618 at the Fleet Air Arm Museum. Pics thanks to Mish.

618%2003.jpg

 

This view is to my eye reminiscent of a latter Fairey aircraft. Lose the cowling and outboard engine as well as the top wing and think of a graceful seabird doing a double mamba. Such rugged engineering.

 

Back on topic, your build is coming along very nicely, lots of proper modelling as opposed to sticking bits together. 

 

The cockpit pit looks the part. 

 

Cheers, Andrew

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Hi All

 

Flying visit to The Lab!

 

Had a quick go at cleaning up the parts prior to painting.

 

Those old Airfix fellas like belt AND braces on their sprue gates

DSCF5523.jpg

 

But never mind, I took the plunge and started glueing the interior in, with a dry fit of the minimalist IP.

DSCF5525.jpg

 

That corner will have to come off to allow the MG to poke through the cowling.

 

Wait, scratch build two guns now :blink:?

 

Hey ho, onward with the fuselage coming together.

 

A slight fly in the otherwise cloudy ointment is the access for fitting the glazing to those carefully hacked out Bomb Aimer's windows.

I thought I might be able to fit them down from inside the pilot's area, but looking at it closed up I think not now.

 

So the area where the lower wing attaches was cut open

DSCF5526.jpg

 

Should be alright now.

 

That being sorted, the IP got a wash of matt Black 33 with the instruments picked out in satin Coal Black 85, as there are no decals

DSCF5527.jpg

 

Is it just me, or has it the look of a Deadly Spider about it... :spider:?

 

Regardless, I've started joining the two halves together where they touch, and will be working along it in due course.

DSCF5528.jpg

 

 

Thso.

 

Back to the subject of paint and markings finish.

 

On 9/23/2017 at 11:15 PM, Black Knight said:

Roundel type first; the type we call C & C1 did not come into use until July 1942, so the ones in those schematics are right

 

The rest? your guess is as good as anyone's.

I would agree with you on just the lowers being black [although I did mine overall black ~ time to do another version I think]

A low demarcation as in the Taranto raid scheme

Roundels under the wings, maybe, maybe not, ~ I would go for not

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Air Ministry order of July 1941

II.   Markings of British Aircraft

 

5. (i)  Upper surfaces.- Red and blue roundels are to be carried on the upper surfaces of the wing tips.

 

(ii)  Side of fuselage.- Red, white and blue roundel surrounded by yellow ring is to be carried on each side of the fuselage.

 

(iii)  Fin markings.- Vertical red, white and blue stripes (with red stripe leading).

 

(iv) Under-surfaces.- (a) Roundels are not to be carried on the under-surfaces of operational aircraft, except day fighters, which may carry red, white and blue roundels.  On black under-surfaces of day fighters the roundel is to be surrounded by a yellow ring.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

Excellent insight, thanks Black Knight, no roundels on the bottom then (but why would day fighters have a black under-surfaces?)

 

Also, the Taranto Raid Swordfish are depicted in various schemes, with a letter on the fuselage

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/navy-commemorates-70th-anniversary-of-battle-of-taranto

 

And without

http://worldwartwodaily.filminspector.com/2016/11/november-12-1940-molotov-takes-berlin.html

(A shot down Swordfish being recovered, about a third of the way down)

 

Is the jury still out.

 

 

Anyhoo, evidence notwithstanding, I'm going for the A04053 scheme.

 

But probably the letter not on the fuselage, but possibly smaller on the tail fin?

 

And possibly narrow Red/White/Blue stripes on there too?

 

This Gift Set seems to be a gift for someone you don't like.

 

 

Comments, suggestions, and a better idea welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

 

 

Edited by ProfSparks
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Really superb detail work on the interior Steve :thumbsup2: .

I enjoy reading research like this on specific aircraft. You’re doing a great job.

 

Thank you for letting me know about the resistors, that’s very kind. I have some vintage hi-fi from the 70’s and 80’s, I do need a few bits and bobs.

 

Quite ironically, compared to the electrical equipment, my HMV wind up gramophone still works perfectly, and probably still would after yet another world war :giggle:! It doesn’t, however, sound quite as nice as the old Garrard deck, Akai amplifier and Wharfedale speakers (when they’re all working well) :headphones: .

 

I’ll send a PM regarding the Prof. Sparks parts :thumbsup2: .

 

Looking forward to the next instalment.

 

Best regards

TonyT

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All

 

Sorry for the hiatus, real life etc.

 

Been thinking about the wing struts and general rigging.

 

This is what Airfix have, where the struts are joined upper and lower

DSCF5595.jpg

 

I'm hoping to detach the lower piece between the struts and blend it into the wing, glue the struts into the upper wing in one piece and see how it goes.

 

But first have to rig the cross wires as I doubt I'll be able to get in there once the struts are in position.

 

Got ten 0.2mm drills from China, £2.40 including postage!

 

DSCF5596.jpg

 

And rigged with that 0.074mm fishing line

DSCF5597.jpg

 

They're not perpendicular to the wings, so some fettling will be needed

DSCF5598.jpg

 

That's it for now, roll on January!

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

 

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On 23/09/2017 at 10:46 PM, ProfSparks said:

a04053a-layout-b.jpg

Steve - you’re making a lovely job of this (particular hat tip re rigging).  A lot better than Hornby’s proof-readers; it’s quite an achievement to spell Lieutenant wrong two different ways in the same sentence...

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Hi All

 

Snuck into the Lab while no-one was looking :pirate:

 

On 10/15/2017 at 5:33 AM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Steve - you’re making a lovely job of this (particular hat tip re rigging).  A lot better than Hornby’s proof-readers; it’s quite an achievement to spell Lieutenant wrong two different ways in the same sentence...

Thanks, good catch :D! Must admit to being more interested in the pretty pictures than the words. (And thanks to Microsoft for Spell Check.)

 

 

Anyhoo, only way to get these circling thoughts out of my head was to get on and do it.

 

Marked up the ends of the brace bits so they were identifiable once cut

DSCF5601.jpg

 

and cut them

DSCF5602.jpg

 

Ever had what Douglas Adams would call an Ely?

 

Regardless, I brazenly channeled  Mr W. Heath Robinson into a jig for holding the wings steady while I glued the strut assembly into the lower surface of the upper wing (other soups are available)

DSCF5603.jpg

 

All nice and square

DSCF5604.jpg

 

Then flipped it all over, and glued the cut out spacer parts into the upper surface of the lower wing.

DSCF5605.jpg

 

That's how it rests tonight.

Best outcome is the struts are easily removable from the lower wing.

However, chances are I've glued everything solid, and will have to smash it apart to get them separated again.

 

 

Comments and suggestions for a better way to do all this welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

Edited by ProfSparks
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An Ely? (The first, tiniest inkling you get that something, somewhere, has gone terribly wrong.)

Looks good to me Steve.

I love 'The Meaning of Liff'; must read it again :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All

 

Another furtive spazm!

 

Thankfully the wings came apart without too much Anglo Saxon.

 

Got a primer coat on the major assemblies, and while they're drying I turned on the engine and exhaust cowling

 

Nice and smooth now (too smooth?) but not a MkI exhaust

IMG_20171025_212524.jpg

 

A quick warm over a candle to bend it slightly (not enough?)

IMG_20171025_212248.jpg

 

And off with it's head

IMG_20171025_212804.jpg

 

That's more like it

IMG_20171025_213433.jpg

 

Now just the small matter of blending it into the exhaust collector ring

IMG_20171025_222722.jpg

 

That's all folks, see you on the other side!

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

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Hi All

 

Progress!

 

The wing strut adaption isn't a complete travesty (yet), will see how it fares under paint.

DSCF5606.jpg

 

Speaking of which, a tale of two half's.

DSCF5621.jpg

 

DSCF5622.jpg

 

DSCF5624.jpg

 

The lower wing is painted in lighter shades of grey / slate grey than the rest of the airframe, and the two paint combinations were worlds apart to spray.

 

Lower wing done in 27 Dark Sea Grey was sheepish about coverage, whereas the rest done in 123 Extra Dark Sea Grey was relaxed.

 

Lower wing again, the 31 Slate Grey didn't want to play, and took on that look of untempered chocolate each time it dried.

 

All the rest done in 116 US Dark Green (from the original supplied paint scheme, and as I didn't have the 224 Dark Slate Grey) was an absolute joy to spray!

 

Good flow, good coverage, good opacity, just like a real paint!

 

I'm finding that the real niggle with these supplied Humbrol paints is not the slightly textured finish, but the inconsistency.

 

Some make me want to spray everything, and some make me want to smash everything.

 

Hey-Ho, you get what you pay for.

 

 

Anyhoo, what's the story behind the offset tail fin?

DSCF5626.jpg

 

I was going to fill the locating holes and put it in straight, thinking it was just dodgy moulding, but the paint scheme diagrams and other builds have it pointing Starboard too.

 

I'm presuming it's to counteract engine torque, or something like that?

 

So, next is the black undersides, and another small step.

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

Edited by ProfSparks
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On 9/29/2017 at 23:12, ProfSparks said:

 

 

Back to the subject of paint and markings finish.

 

 

Excellent insight, thanks Black Knight, no roundels on the bottom then (but why would day fighters have a black under-surfaces?)

 

Also, the Taranto Raid Swordfish are depicted in various schemes, with a letter on the fuselage

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/navy-commemorates-70th-anniversary-of-battle-of-taranto

 

And without

http://worldwartwodaily.filminspector.com/2016/11/november-12-1940-molotov-takes-berlin.html

(A shot down Swordfish being recovered, about a third of the way down)

 

Is the jury still out.

 

 

Anyhoo, evidence notwithstanding, I'm going for the A04053 scheme.

 

But probably the letter not on the fuselage, but possibly smaller on the tail fin?

 

And possibly narrow Red/White/Blue stripes on there too?

 

This Gift Set seems to be a gift for someone you don't like.

 

 

Comments, suggestions, and a better idea welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

 

 

 

Steve,

 

The evidence for black 825 Swordfish is not strong. I spent a long time trying to track this down when doing the research for my book on FAA camouflage and markings. I couldn't find any written documentation in Admiralty documents, though this in itself doesn't mean that they weren't finished in black (in contrast, there is written evidence, as well as copious photographic evidence, for black 815 Squadron Taranto Swordfish). But as far as I can tell, the claim for black Channel Dash Swordfish originates from the oral testimony of a 825 Squadron rigger who volunteered the information to MDC 60 years after the event, while they were researching their resin 1/48 kit. Or at least this is how it is reported in their kit instructions, if I recall correctly. Since the same source (presumably) provided incorrect details of the positioning of the codes reported in their kit instructions, I'd like to see further collaborating evidence before accepting the black finish. The codes were carried in red on the fin on 825 Squadron Swordfish immediately after the Channel Dash (and quite small letters), so it is highly likely, in my view, that this is how they were positioned in February 1942, and not on the fuselage as per most artwork.  Prior to the Channel Dash, codes were not positioned on the fuselage either.

 

As for the top-surface pattern, this would have been the distinctive Blackburn pattern that all their TSS Mk 1 and Mk II Swordfish were finished in (look at any photograph of a V, W, HS etc serial Swordfish and you'll see what I mean). Undersurfaces were Sky on these aircraft. Counter shading may or may not have been applied - the evidence is not clear cut, though my view is not. The fin flash would have been a 24" x 27" rectangle, as standard on all Blackburn built Swordfish.

 

HTH

 

IG

 

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Hi All

 

On 10/30/2017 at 10:52 PM, iang said:

 

Steve,

 

The evidence for black 825 Swordfish is not strong. I spent a long time trying to track this down when doing the research for my book on FAA camouflage and markings. I couldn't find any written documentation in Admiralty documents, though this in itself doesn't mean that they weren't finished in black (in contrast, there is written evidence, as well as copious photographic evidence, for black 815 Squadron Taranto Swordfish). But as far as I can tell, the claim for black Channel Dash Swordfish originates from the oral testimony of a 825 Squadron rigger who volunteered the information to MDC 60 years after the event, while they were researching their resin 1/48 kit. Or at least this is how it is reported in their kit instructions, if I recall correctly. Since the same source (presumably) provided incorrect details of the positioning of the codes reported in their kit instructions, I'd like to see further collaborating evidence before accepting the black finish. The codes were carried in red on the fin on 825 Squadron Swordfish immediately after the Channel Dash (and quite small letters), so it is highly likely, in my view, that this is how they were positioned in February 1942, and not on the fuselage as per most artwork.  Prior to the Channel Dash, codes were not positioned on the fuselage either.

 

As for the top-surface pattern, this would have been the distinctive Blackburn pattern that all their TSS Mk 1 and Mk II Swordfish were finished in (look at any photograph of a V, W, HS etc serial Swordfish and you'll see what I mean). Undersurfaces were Sky on these aircraft. Counter shading may or may not have been applied - the evidence is not clear cut, though my view is not. The fin flash would have been a 24" x 27" rectangle, as standard on all Blackburn built Swordfish.

 

HTH

 

IG

 

 

Thanks iang, I don't know if I'm any closer to a probable scheme or not!

 

Could you point me in the right direction with some photos?

 

Is this the standard Blackburn pattern on W5856?

Swordfish-W5856-1200x400-LHowardIMG_8230

 

There doesn't appear to be lower wing shadow colouring, but does have a high 'waistline'.

 

Here's Edmonde with a Swordfish after the sinking of the Bismarck in 1941

Bismarck_aircrew_rewarded.jpg

and it shows a much lower demarcation.

 

Is it a constant pattern or would there be variations between aircraft?

 

Would this also be acceptable as an upper surface scheme?

a04053a-layout-b.jpg

 

The demarcation between upper and lower surface colours on the fuselage sides looks too low and straight, should it be more like this?

swordfish_camo-815-black.jpg

Fairey Swordfish Mk.II W5970
No.815 Sqn FAA
April 1942

I'm hoping this is the closest yet, but with a red H on the tail fin?

 

Thanks for all your knowledge iang, it's a fascinating subject.

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

 

 

 

 

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I would have thought the higher demarcation line more likely as it seems to match where the original sky would have ended. I suspect that the sky was over painted specially for the operation.

 

Martian

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The 825 May 1941 photo captures the Blackburn pattern perfectly. Notice the sweeping curve of the demarcation. The rear fuselage is similar (as per W5970). This is how all early Blackburn Swordfish were painted.   I've never seen a Fairey produced aircraft camouflaged by units that looked anything like this, which makes Blackfish easily recognisable. The black distemper, if it was applied, would probably have only covered the Sky areas. The colour photo of W5856 has an upper wing pattern that matches the factory drawings well.  This is painted in a Blackburn Atlantic scheme for U-Boat attack, with white undersurfaces, so ignore the demarcation as it was a different pattern than the one used on TSB/R Swordfish for fleet carrier usage.  

 

So you have all you need. Follow the upper surface demarcation evident on W5970 and wing pattern on W5856. Apply black over Sky, if that's how you want your model to look. It might be right, and no photographs exist in the public domain to prove you wrong. If black distemper was applied, it quickly faded to a dark, uneven, dirty grey. Given that, according to the testimony of the 825 rigger, they were painted just before the attack, a scale black would be more appropriate. All you need then is a dark red code for the fin (probably measuring about a 1/3rd of the height of the fin). These were single letter only.

 

As an aside, Swayne's aircraft looked nothing like the way it has been drawn. His aircraft was a Fairey produced Swordfish, camouflaged by the Squadron, with a high demarcation and black distemper applied over the Sky-Grey. I found film of this aircraft on Illustrious, which clearly shows the serial and code, so there is no doubt about its identity.

Edited by iang
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Hi All

 

Excellent info, thanks, just what I was looking for!

 

Should I repaint the upper surfaces and fuselage in the lighter  sea grey / slate grey, as W5856 doesn't look as dark as EDSG / DSG, or is that part of the Atlantic scheme? (I might be able to pass off the finish as salt weathering :unsure:?) Or just paint the lower wing as the rest of the aircraft and go for the W5970 look?

 

Would a scale black be more like a very dark grey?

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

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Hi All

 

Let's try that again!

 

I'm just going for the lighter tones and no shadow shading, as I couldn't quite reconcile myself with the darkness.

 

So.

 

A quick covering of primer

DSCF5649.jpg

 

A quick covering of 27 Dark Sea Grey

DSCF5650.jpg

 

A quick covering in Blu Tack and tape

DSCF5651.jpg

 

A quick covering of 31 Slate Grey

DSCF5652.jpg

 

And I'm just about back where I was

DSCF5653.jpg

 

It looks darker in the photos than than in real life, and the grey is less purple too.

 

Must admit to being pleased at how little surface detail is lost under a dozen coats of paint in some places.

 

Onward!

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

Edited by ProfSparks
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Hi All

 

Now for the rest of the paint job!

 

All masked up and ready to roll

DSCF5654.jpg

 

A first pass with Black 33

DSCF5655.jpg

 

On 11/1/2017 at 9:06 PM, Martian Hale said:

Personally, I would be using Tamiya NATO Black.

 

Martian

Hi Martian, in keeping with the basic level of this build I'm going to stick mainly with what's in the little paint snots, and mix my own :unsure:

 

I've looked at what makes a Black a NATO Black, and it seems to be slightly lighter, with a green / blue tint.

 

I mixed in some Slate Grey 31 with the Black and gave it a coat.

 

These colours are playing with my eyes, as it looked decidedly blue-ish as it went on.

 

Saying that, both the Dark Sea Grey and the Slate Grey looked just grey when applied, but when the mask came off and they could be seen together, there is a definite Dark Sea Purple and Slate Green hue about them :shocked:

 

Anyhoo, it looks black enough now

DSCF5656.jpg

 

And the all important one, as if this isn't right, I doubt I'll be able to re-mask and re-spray

DSCF5657.jpg

 

Whew!

DSCF5658.jpg

 

DSCF5659.jpg

 

Oddly nervous when taking the wrapping off, not like me at all!

 

Hate to think what it would be like to do all this seriously.

 

Gave everything a couple of coats of Pledge to stop me rubbing it all off again, then out with the foam plugs, and this is where I'm at.

DSCF5661.jpg

 

DSCF5662.jpg

 

Time to move it away from the paint shop and back onto the slab.

 

 

Comments and suggestions welcome

 

Cheers

Steve

 

Edited by ProfSparks
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