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Let's Go Retro: Shaping and Scraping the Zeppelin Lindau (Dornier) Rs II (late)


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Impressive work! The description of the steps you went through to achieve such beautiful result is fascinating!

 

Cheers

 

Jaime

 

 

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Wow Phoenix!

 

A superb explanation of process there, some magnificent soldering followed by precision drillsmanship!

 

Suddenly this aircraft is leaping to life from a set of shapes to become an actual 'thing'. 

 

An absolutely inspiring update sir.:nodding:

Tony

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Ian, Jamie and Tony for leaving your very positive comments.

 

Tony: I try to explain each stage in some detail as you do in your threads so that others can learn from my mistakes! Seriuosly, I used to be scared witless at the thought of what others did and do, but have found that with a little patience and a lot of practice many things can be done. I just want to encourage others to do so too. And as you write, at last it is beginning to look a bit more like an aeroplane rather than a lump of carved wood and assorted bits of plastic of varying shapes and sizes! Well there is more to follow now....

 

The first step was to attach the top boom arms to the hull. I laid the boom on to a set of plans and cut off the excess rod at both ends, leaving enough at the front end to be pushed about 2.5 cm into the hull. This will ensure that it does not move or fall out later.. The boom was supported by three upright posts at the very rear of the hull - these were made from brass rod and expoxied into holes drilled into the hull. These holes were drilled at the same time as others which will be used later for among other things, engine support struts, stub wings, and cabane struts. In all 41 holes of different sizes, and all had to be in the correct places - not 3mm or 5mm too much to one side or the other. I too can get cross-eyed when measuring so I made a tracing from the plans to show where all the holes on the top of the hull needed to go and transferred this to the model. I could then check each location and correct if necessary without finding later that I had mis-drilled one or two! The holes in the sides of the hull for the stub wings were easier as I will explain later.

 

Back to the boom: with the vertical posts in place I epoxied the front post and pushed this into the hole in the centre of the hull until the triangular section at the front of the boom sat directly over the posts. A quick dab of CA on the tops of the posts and put the boom on to the posts: the CA made sure that the boom did not move while the epoxy cured overnight. In the morning I added the centre strip in the triangle at the front end of the boom - this was from 15 tou plastic card held also held in place with CA.

 

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The last photo shows the holes where the lower boom arms will be inserted into the hull However before that stage I cut the fins from 30 thou card and rouned the leading and trailing edges: these were fabric wrapped around the boom struts so did not need to be either aerofiol section of very thin. These two pieces of card were CA'd to the underside of the upper boom arms:

 

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Now the lower boom arms could be epoxied into the rear of the hull and CA'd to the card fins. This method of using epoxy and CA means that the arms are securely fixed to the wood and plastic: I have some wriggle time to get the boom in the correct place with the epoxy, and when it is where I want it the CA holds it in place while the epoxy cures.

 

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When the above was set and rigid I could add the remainder of the boom struts - vertical and horizontal. I started with the horizontal strut at the rear: I measured the gap with a pair of dividers, cut the rod and filed the ends with a round file to fit into the circular boom arm and CA'd it into place:

 

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Having checked that all was square and true I was able to cut the remaining pieces of brass rod as per the above and glue into place. I finished by cutting the vertical centre posts from 20 thou plastic rod and CA'd them into place too:

 

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At last I have a structure which is beginning to look like a flying boat! There are alternative ways to do this but experience has taught me that making the parts as I go along is better in the end because I can measure everything to fit together exactly rather than finding that something is not quite square, the wrong length, too short, etc when the completed sub-assembly is tested against the other part of the model. I also used CA for the brass attachments because it was easier and safer than solder and a hot iron: imagine trying to hold the rod with one hand and solder and iron in another......and then get it all square and true!!!

 

The front arm of the boom was braced on each side by small struts which I represented with 15 thou rod. Of course holes had been drilled in the top of the hull to receive these.... Finally I added the stub wings at the rear of the hull. I had drilled two holes in the edges of each wing and inserted a piece of stiff wire which was held in place with CA. The wire ends were held against the hull to mark where the holes should be drilled. (This was actually done before I fixed the boom into place  - I am describing it here to make it easier to follow). Add a drop of CA to the ends of the wires and insert into the holes in the hull. A little filler as necessary was run along the joint and the whole rubbed down and primed.

 

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Thanks for looking.

 

P

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Quite possibly the most astonishing work I've ever seen. You're fearlous in the faced of multi media, I wouldn't be surprised to see tissue and dope in the mix soon along with home made paint after you've gathered the berries!

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Fascinating build! I just wonder if you consider the mass balance. The hull looks massive but it is balsa, the rear fuselage looks fragile but ist is brass. Are you sure that model will not be a tail-sitter? Perhaps it is a good moment to put som lead into drilled  caverns in hull? - if needed of course...

Regards

J-W

 

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On 11/1/2017 at 3:59 PM, hendie said:

fantastic doesn't describe that work.  Lovely scratch building (neither does that!)

Many thanks Hendie for the very complimentary remark. Coming from one with your skill and dexterity I much appreciate that.

 

On 11/3/2017 at 2:14 AM, jrlx said:

Excellent work and clear step by step description! The model is shaping up beautifully!

 

Cheers

 

Jaime

 

 

Thanks Jamie. I did state from the start that I would try to explain my methods clearly so that others could follow as and how they wished. It is good to know that my descriptions are clear: sometimes describing a process can be a little difficult although pictures do help.

 

On 11/3/2017 at 2:57 PM, TheBaron said:

That rear framework. What can I say? A fantastic piece of structure!

Suddenly this is flourishing detail in all directions.:D

Thanks Tony. Yes the great thing about scratch building is that nothing seems to happen for long periods while numerous parts are made, and then suddenly lots happens and the model begins to look like what was in the imagination at the start. There is still much detail to add of course - all of that boom structure has to be rigged for a start!

 

On 11/4/2017 at 1:22 PM, Mjwomack said:

Quite possibly the most astonishing work I've ever seen. You're fearlous in the faced of multi media, I wouldn't be surprised to see tissue and dope in the mix soon along with home made paint after you've gathered the berries!

Thank you for the very kind remark which I really appreciate. I have not worked with brass before but I regularly work with wood to make moulds for push/plunge moulding. I think that I will give collecting berries for the paint a miss as most of them are now either rotten or being eaten by the birds and I am not very good at grinding pigments! Painting will commence shortly however.

 

23 hours ago, JWM said:

Fascinating build! I just wonder if you consider the mass balance. The hull looks massive but it is balsa, the rear fuselage looks fragile but ist is brass. Are you sure that model will not be a tail-sitter? Perhaps it is a good moment to put som lead into drilled  caverns in hull? - if needed of course...

Regards

J-W

 

 

Thanks Jerzy. With reference to the wood it is basswood (lime) not balsa so it is actually heavier than you might think. Even so it is currently a bit of a tail sitter in that it rests on the rear of the hull, but as I explained at the start of the build I intend to mount this on a mini-diorama to represent Seemoos where the aeroplane was built. This means that I will try to construct a turntable and part of the launch platforms: the aircraft will then be fixed to part of the diorama and will be held rigid and in a level state within the diorama scene. Well that is the plan.... first I have to finish the model and time is moving on quickly! This model is being built at lightning speed by my normal standards!

 

I have finished the tail surfaces by assembling the biplane elevator and making the upper halves of the fins and rudders and attaching them to the horizontal stabilizer. I used 30 thou card for the fins and rudders and cut two slots in them so that I could insert the horizontal surface. Filler had to be used to clean up the joint because unless the gap was slightly oversize the horizontal surface ribs would not pass through. Incidentally a strange feature of this part is that the ribs are on the underside and not the top as on the wings: I do not know why this was so but it is clear from photos and the drawings that this was the case.

 

The elevator was a biplane structure which was easily assembled using 20 thou rod for the struts. Simple holes were drilled in both surfaces, the rod cut to length and all held together with liquid cement. I still have to add the arms which joined this structure to the rear of the upper boom arms.

 

Just to illustrate again how big this aircraft was (and how big a model it will be when finished) I have put the elevator, upper fins and rudders and the ailerons around an Avro Type D biplane which is in the same scale. This aircraft was built and flew only 5 years after the Avro.

 

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Thanks for looking.

 

P

 

 

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That certainly puts it in perspective, it's huge! Can't be too long now before we see at least a dry fit of all the major bits.....

 

Ian

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  • 2 weeks later...

Evening All,

 

Thanks Ian and Jamie for the positive comments. It will be a little while yet Ian before I am ready to dry fit very much - more like assembling each sub-unit as I go along, especially as the engine nacelles are mounted on two sets of struts and the wing on a third! Which reminds me I have still to shape the engine nacelles and put in something resembling engines.....

 

I have fixed the windshield to the hull - that was the part that I moulded and showed earlier. It was metal and I think had the instrument panel mounted behind it - at least that is how I have interpreted it. The IP was a simple piece of card painted in oils to represent wood, (although on the original it may have been duraluminium?), and then some black dots to represent instruments. As this part will barely visible on the completed model that is good enough. The joint between the windshield and hull was filled and sanded and then the whole given a coat of primer, together with the wing and tail surfaces. The brass boom was given a coat of metal primer: I am not sure how acrylics would go on to uncoated brass and I was not prepared to take the risk. 

 

Painting and decorating followed. The first was the CDL for which I have used Revell Beige 314. Artwork is not my strong suit and I find it very difficult to mix paint and get consistent shades so I used this straight from the pot. I watered it down and applied numerous coats - I think about 12 in all - I lost count actually. The first two coats looked positively awful but after that things improved a little. For the wings and large surfaces I drew the brush across the surface for one coat and then along for the next, alternating the direction for each coat. The final coat was always from the front to the rear of the part being painted.

 

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Then on to the metallic areas which I have represented with Revell Hellgrau 76 again straight form the pot but again watered down and multi-coated as described above. The finish does look a bit uniform but the photographs do not show any variation and any panel lines would be too small to see in this scale anyway.

 

Next came the decoration: I had printed the crosses on my computer so I first cut out the white background squares from white transfer sheet and applied these:

 

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This is the top of the wing and shows what I mean - nothing special. After that was dry the crosses were applied, in this case under the wing:

 

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The ribs on the underside were cut from 10 x 20 thou Evergreen strip and represent reinforcing strips between the strut location points. I have since painted these grey too as these were metallic and not covered by fabric. The holes where the struts will be eventually fitted can also be seen here. The fin crosses were also applied so that the complete hull assembly now looks like this:

 

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After all the excitement of waiting for paint to dry I can now get on with rigging the underside and inside of the boom because I am concerned about access accidentally knocking off parts because I have to invert the model in order to rig these areas. I also need to get on with those engine nacelles.....

 

Thanks for looking.

 

p

 

 

 

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On 11/19/2017 at 12:04 AM, JWM said:

I am deeply impressed by the quality yu've got already... Congrats!

J-W

 

Thank you Jerzy. I really appreciate positive comments from a modeller with your skills

On 11/19/2017 at 12:25 AM, JOCKNEY said:

Absolutely superb, looking forward to the next instalment :popcorn:

 

cheers Pat

Thanks Pat. The next instalment is below - I hope that you will enjoy this one too. I have to get on with this though as Jamie keeps reminding us of that looming deadline.....

 

On 11/19/2017 at 6:15 AM, hendie said:

with the paint on, that is one incredible "does not look like scratch built" piece of scratch building.   Impressive!

That must rank as one of the kindest remarks that I have read so far for this build. I do hope that it will not look like a scratch build when it is complete.

On 11/20/2017 at 2:15 PM, jrlx said:

Simply superb paint job! Very impressed! :worthy:

 

The model is looking really special. I'm looking forward to the next post.

 

Cheers

 

Jaime

 

 

Thanks Jamie. I was taught how to use acrylics by Epeeman who also uses a hairy stick and achieves a finish which is as good as any airbrush. I hope that my finishes are better than they used to be when I was using enamels.

 

I have rigged the lower part of the tail boom together with the vertical sections as shown in the photos. Experience has taught me that rigging parts of a model like this is strongly advised as they become much less accessible later when there are large parts such as wings etc to catch on when one is trying to get the tweezers and wire into tiny spaces. I use rolled 40 SWG copper wire: I measure the length needed directly from the model using a pair of dividers. l then cut a piece of wire which is slightly longer than needed and roll it flat with a piece of brass strip on a hardwood base. The wire is offered to the space where it is supposed to fit and by the use of Mk 1 eyeball I estimate how much needs to be trimmed. A second, and if necessary third, attempt is made until the wire is the correct length. A tiny blob of CA is added to the model at both ends where the wire is to be attached and the wire carefully placed in position. The CA usually grabs the wire and holds it firm. Sometimes I will put one end on and then use tweezers or a knife blade to gently ease the other end of the wire into place if it is difficult to get to. By using wire I do not have to drill and fill lots of holes, and in the case of this boom structure which is made from brass, I do not have to drill into metal which would be extremely difficult and time consuming. The results look like this:

 

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Whilst I was in rigging mode I decided to complete the elevator so that I could store it where it cannot be damaged. This will be one of the very last parts to be added to the model so I need to keep it safe in the meantime. 

 

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Just a reminder of size and how much rigging there is on this aeroplane, here again is the Avro biplane with the rigged and painted elevator: remember this will be at the very rear of the flying boat and is a relatively small part of it!

 

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I have been thinking hard about how I am going to attach the large V struts under the wings to the hull sides. On the original aircraft they came to a common joint and were attached to the hull side and probably to a large piece of frame inside the hull. I do not think that it will be practical to make the ends of 4 pieces of plastic come together and simultaneously be able to fix them to the hull sides, so I have decided to make two small attachment pieces from 60 thou card, drill holes in them and the hull and attach them with wire and CA. However I needed to make the attachment pieces the correct size: the struts will be made from 120 thou x 30 thou Evergreen strip shaped to aerofiol section, (the original struts were huge as the photos show). So I cut two small pieces of strip and made a tapered joint so that they would come together with a combined width of 60 thou. I could then cut the attachment pieces to fit exactly the strut ends:

 

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The hull attachment parts have an angled face which will be glued to the hull side and be reinforced with a piece of wire which I took from a piece of telephone cable. The opposite side will then be angled upwards so that the ends of the struts will fit directly on to it and will form a butt joint. The wing is completely rigid so the V struts should not be carrying any weight. The completed attachment lugs look like this:

 

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These have been CA'd to the hull.

 

I have also done some work on the engine nacelles: by the use of a file and glass paper I have shaped them to match the drawings and then I drilled out two slots, one at each end on the top, into which I am going to insert some short pieces of 60 thou rod to represent the cylinder ends. I have called this a retro model for good reasons: I am not intending to add a huge amount of cockpit and engine detail only to cover it all up - this model will resemble some of the early Frog and Airfix models from the 1950's where there were no wheel wells, cockpit openings, or other recesses! I have also resorted to talcum powder and dope as a filler - another 1960's, pre-resin aftermarket solution to a modelling problem! The engine tops will have some detail which will hopefully disguise to all but the most serious onlooker the small liberties that I am taking with this model. The rear engines will be nearly hidden under the wing anyway and all will have radiators mounted above them which will also help to obscure the view!

 

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There is some tidying up to do around the edges of the slots but that will be easy to do and when paint is on they should pass muster. Various holes have been drilled in the sides and front and rear which represent various orifices on the originals, but I have no idea why they were there, they are just clearly visible in the photos

 

Thanks for looking.

 

P

Edited by pheonix
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Oh my word Phoenix - you've excelled yourself! Those last two photo updates are breathtaking examples of the craft.

 

The rigging on that boom looks so impressive,  knowing how much patience that must have required.

 

You have to be feeling a bit chuffed at how that's looking now? :D

Tony

 

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Beautiful job on the rigging P!

 I may have found what I've been looking for on the wire-for-rigging front in the form of .066mm nickel chrome wire. I'm waiting for a reply to an email to confirm that it will roll straight before I order some as the stainless wire I have of that size is too springy. I'll keep you posted!

 

Ian

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Evening All,

On 11/23/2017 at 12:15 PM, TheBaron said:

Oh my word Phoenix - you've excelled yourself! Those last two photo updates are breathtaking examples of the craft.

 

The rigging on that boom looks so impressive,  knowing how much patience that must have required.

 

You have to be feeling a bit chuffed at how that's looking now? :D

Tony

 

Thanks Tony - yes I am pleased with with way things have gone so far. I do find rigging less stressful than some - because of the method I use and the number of wires I have fixed over the years, I have learned some tricks.... But then there is always the ones which are really difficult to get to....

 

On 11/23/2017 at 4:47 PM, jrlx said:

The rigging work on the tail boom and elevator is absolutely awesome! :worthy:

 

Cheers

 

Jaime

 

 

Thanks Jamie. The elevator was relatively straightforward - rather like rigging a biplane without the fuselage!

 

On 11/24/2017 at 5:04 AM, hendie said:

that rigging is phenomenal.  I would never for a moment have thought it was brass wire CA'd in place.

Thanks Hendie, I really appreciate your comment. I find wire much more suitable than trying to drill holes fro thread in brass, and unless you look closely and see the colour, it is not noticeable.

 

On 11/24/2017 at 9:43 AM, stevehed said:

Brilliant job P, particularly the rigging. Have tried several times to use this method but I always bend the wire when trying to position it.

Thanks Steve. Might I suggest that you try to gently lay one end of the wire on to the model and let the other drop - the very gently push the other end into place with the tweezers. I also bend wires if I try to attach both ends simultaneously.

 

On 11/24/2017 at 3:20 PM, limeypilot said:

Beautiful job on the rigging P!

 I may have found what I've been looking for on the wire-for-rigging front in the form of .066mm nickel chrome wire. I'm waiting for a reply to an email to confirm that it will roll straight before I order some as the stainless wire I have of that size is too springy. I'll keep you posted!

 

Ian

Thanks Ian. I just wish that I could rig my models as well as you! I have never used nickel chrome  so I will be very interested to read how you get on with it.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 2:58 AM, JWM said:

Benedictian work with riging! I am impressed all your build!

Cheers

J-W

 

Thank you Jamie. This is the largest scratch build that I have made, and it is one of the fastest given its relative size. I normally do not work as quickly as this - it is because of the deadline that I have to keep at it.

 

I have been thinking about the struts for some time now. The wing is heavy and I am concerned that plastic strip, even the size that I intend to use, 120 thou x 40 thou, will bend or flex under the weight. I have worked out the construction sequence from here on and it will be make the struts and dry fit,  mount the engine nacelles on the hull, fix the cabane struts and put on the wing, add the V struts to the sides, add the tail unit and other details. This means that the cabane struts must be strong enough to hold the wing in place as I simply cannot put on those and the V struts at the same time. If the cabane struts are not strong enough the wing may collapse on to the engines and I will be a little discombombulated.....! The question that I have not been able to answer is will the cabanes be able to support the wing on their own? Do the V struts also need to be reinforced? I have held the wing in the centre and it shows no sign of sag at the ends - I would be surprised if it did because it is three sheets of 60 thou card laminated and I have found from experience that by laminating card that problem is solved. However there is still the weight problem.

 

So! I have made a decision. I will reinforce the cabane struts and hope for the best with the V struts. I am going to reinforce the cabanes using a method that Ian (Limeypilot) has demonstrated. I measured the lengths of 120 x 40 thou Evergreen strip from the plans and cut them slightly too long, then scraped and shaped them to aerofoil section. That did not take long and gives a better shape than the preformed aftermarket materials, plus I have the size that I want. I then cut the strip lengthwise into three equal widths. The centre piece was discarded and replaced with a length of 3/64 inch (1.19mm) brass rod. The strut was re-assembled with CA and the gaps filled with standard filler and allowed to dry out. After a couple of sessions of sanding and filling small gaps, the whole was coated with Mr Surfacer to get a nice even finish and the lot was repainted:

 

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The top piece is the original strip which has been scraped and shaped and painted! (I know, I should not have bothered but....). The second shows the rod in place between the two parts of the strip which will form the front and rear of the strut. The lower piece is a completed strut. Can you see the joint? No? Good!

 

Before I start to fit the engine nacelles I must first drill the holes to take the ends of the brass rod in the hull. All three struts are angled, which means that the holes must be angled too because bending the ends of brass rod is NOT easy. So the angles of the struts were measured from the plans, a complex(!) jig was made and put into place on the hull so that I could align the drill correctly, and I held my breath 6  times as I drilled away....

 

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Those pieces of plastic stuck to the sides of the hull are to represent some form of structure which had to be added to the sides of the hull of the machine because the hull tapers gently to the rear. In order that the front strut is exactly in line with the two at the rear they had to put a bulge at the top of the hull in this area. It is not clear from either photos or plans how this looked exactly, so I have put two pieces on which I think are sufficiently accurate.

 

A dry fit of the struts was then made: they are too long I know but I intend to trim them when I put the wing on: that is why the forward pair cross over. It may look messy but when I fit the wing I can sort out any small problems: for now I just want to make sure that they are at the correct angles and line up front to rear.

 

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The next update will be a little delayed as I have to go on my travels again.

 

Thanks for looking.

 

P
 

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