H&S Evolution - Tip clogging very fast

[armored76]

Hey,

 

I'm really getting fed up with my H&S Evolution so I need to vent while picking your minds for a possible solutiin

I'm using acrylic paints from Revell, Vallejo and Mig and no matter which brand, what paint-to-thinner ratio, pressure (10-15 psi) or thinner (tap water, IPA, IPA+water, original Revell Aqua thinner) I'm using the tip always ends up clogged as soon as I stop spraying for more than 2-3 seconds. I have to wipe off the tip of the needle to be able to spray again. Today, for instance I used a 30-70, paint-thinner mix for some post-shading. The paint wasn't even flowing constantly at 15 psi! When it did, it spidered, of course.

 

Have you experienced such a problem? Can someone please help with any advice? I'm on the verge of selling it...

 

Many-many thanks in advance!

Cristian

[little-cars]

I would not use IPA with Vallejo or probably mig paints.  It can gel the paint in the nozzle and clog it up.

 

It sounds like you have something like that happening in the nozzle.

 

I would remove the nozzle and inspect the inside with a magnifier and clean it thoroughly. 

Also clean all the paint out of the rest of the body of the brush as well.

 

Paul

[armored76]

7 minutes ago, little-cars said:

I would not use IPA with Vallejo or probably mig paints.  It can gel the paint in the nozzle and clog it up.

Thanks, Paul! I thin Vallejo and Mig paints with water only for that exact reason, making sure I rinse with water when switching paint types. Learned that the hard way IPA and the Revell thinner is only used for the Revell Aquas.

 

I inspected the nozzle and needle for possible damage or clogging but nothing obviously wrong there

Edited August 29, 2017 by armored76

[little-cars]

Could it be a needle, nozzle, aircap mismatch ?

[armored76]

Hi Paul,

 

Thanks for staying on this with me!

 

I only have a 0.2 needle so this is not likely unless it has been wrongly packaged by production. The needle has no indentation so it is the 0.2 mm one. The nozzle doesn't have the indented "ring" either so this should be fine, as well. As for the cap, I'm not sure how to tell these apart but mine has an extruding lip / beak.

 

I was wondering if the position of the air valve is correct... Looking at it from the bottom, after removing the air hose, it sits quite close to the outer edge, less than 5 mm, probably. Pressing the trigger releases the air but not sure if it opens completely, releasing "enough" air at 15 psi.

 

Which brings me to a second thought... Would 15 psi be enough with a 0.2 mm nozzle and thinned-down acrylics?

 

Then last but not least, looking at other Evolution descriptions on the internet, I realized that the front of the body has that part the nozzle sits on which has a semi-circular cut-out for the air. Mine sits to the right when looked at from the front while others have it at the bottom. This part is not movable so I don't think this would make any difference. Right?

 

Thanks again!

Cristian

[little-cars]

Hi,  20 psi is I think the average setting, but try different ones, they may work for you.

 

The screw on the bottom of the air valve, you should see about three rings of thread.

 

The air hoe on all Evo's I have seen are on the right looking from the front of the brush.

 

It's worth checking with a cocktail stick or micro brish, in case there is some dried paint blocking part off the chanel.

 

Paul

 

[armored76]

Thanks for the extra hints, Paul!

I'll try to up the air pressure and also filter the paint before putting it into the cup.

 

Will report back in case I have any improvement.

[P_Budzik]

H

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by P_Budzik

[M1ks]

I don't have experience with H&S but have read a few comments re tip dry problems. 

Personally I believe 0.2mm is too small for practical modelling use, that's ideal fine detail airbrush art size where you use very thinned paint and higher pressures. 

The Iwata I use has a 0.5mm tip and needle/nozzle and when I bought it I considered a 0.3mm conversion kit as my cheap Chinese ab is 0.3mm.

However, I find it's perfect, I can spray with as fine a detail as I can with the 0.3mm cheapie. 

I'd recommend a larger needle/nozzle setup if you can change them, 0.3mm minimum, pressure tends to vary with personal preference to a degree but I find smaller needs higher pressure to achieve the same control, Alclad in the cheapie needed 20psi+ 10-15 is ideal in the Iwata for example. 

A final note on thinning, IPA I've found only works well with tamiya acrylics and flashes off too quickly anyway for anything other than matte, it makes other acrylics 'claggy and jellylike'.

Water is a go/no go fine line between mixing and separating the pigments but tamiya's x20a thinner works well with citadel acrylics so maybe try those with your Vallejo and see if that improves it? 

Edited August 31, 2017 by M1ks

[sergant-san]

Add a drop or two of Vallejo Flow Improver to the mix. I found that Vallejo thinner makes paint dry quicker on the tip. For me on 0.2 evolution at 18psi the best combination is 60:20:20 - paint : thinner : flow improver. For Citadel yellows, it drops to 50:20:30.. 

[armored76]

Thanks for the great suggestions! I'll be out of town for the next week but will give all this a try once back and then report again here.

[fewr9fkr9595]

On 31/08/2017 at 00:32, Paul Budzik said:

Have you ever used these paints successfully in a different airbrush?

IMHO .2mm is too fine for paint ...especially acrylic ... but you might try adding some retarder as a work-around.

 

Paul

 

+1 

 

0.3mm is the finest for me with 'water' type acrylics. 

 

0.2mm and below for 'lacquer' type acrylics only. 

 

Tony

[armored76]

I've been using a no-name brush with a 0.2 mm nozzle with the same paints. While it was not hassle-free, it was at least working. I switched to the H&S in the hope to further improve on that... Well... you can read how that ended

 

Right now, I don't feel like cashing out another 40 Euro for a 0.4 mm set. I might just get another no-name setup with 3 needles/nozzles for half of that price!

 

I'll let this sit for the next week and reconsider once I'm back to modelling...

[Mike]

On 31/08/2017 at 00:32, Paul Budzik said:

IMHO .2mm is too fine for paint ...especially acrylic ... but you might try adding some retarder as a work-around.

 

I use a 0.2mm needle in my Infinities almost exclusively, and while it does sometimes clog the needle, I generally don't have a problem as long as I don't try to put Humbrol acrylic through it.

 

If your brush is clogging while you're not using it, check you've pushed the needle far enough forward into the nozzle to prevent paint leaking during your idle periods.  I usually insert my needle (from the front, although Paul would disagree), then screw in my nozzle (air & paint) without tightening the needle nut at all.  Then, with your fingertip applying a little pressure to the rear of the needle, use your other hand to screw up the needle nut nice & tight without going insanely tight.  That should stop any leaks, which you can test by leaving water in the brush pointing slightly downward and watching for drips.  If it's still finding a way to get clogged, clean the tip with a cotton bud and see if this prevents the issue.  Also, as others have already said, add a drop or two of flow improver as appropriate.

 

HTH

[armored76]

I have about the same procedure for (re)assembling the needle except for the "two handed" part, pushing the needle while tightening the retainer. Have to give that a try.

 

As for the retarder and flow improver part, the Revell thinner contains both of them. It gets a bit better with that (without solving the problem) compared to IPA but it would also take a whole lot to dry afterwards so I have mixed feelings about it.

[Mike]

Just don't push too hard on the rear of the needle, as that way lies split nozzles

[little-cars]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

 

I use a 0.2mm needle in my Infinities almost exclusively, and while it does sometimes clog the needle, I generally don't have a problem as long as I don't try to put Humbrol acrylic through it.

 

If your brush is clogging while you're not using it, check you've pushed the needle far enough forward into the nozzle to prevent paint leaking during your idle periods.  I usually insert my needle (from the front, although Paul would disagree), then screw in my nozzle (air & paint) without tightening the needle nut at all.  Then, with your fingertip applying a little pressure to the rear of the needle, use your other hand to screw up the needle nut nice & tight without going insanely tight.  That should stop any leaks, which you can test by leaving water in the brush pointing slightly downward and watching for drips.  If it's still finding a way to get clogged, clean the tip with a cotton bud and see if this prevents the issue.  Also, as others have already said, add a drop or two of flow improver as appropriate.

 

HTH

It's the 0.4's with the notch in them that  are most likely to damage the o ring.  And I have hundreds of customers happily using the 0.2mm nozzle with acrylics of all different types. There are many variables, but flow enhanser  and thinning the paint to the right amount is key.   

[M1ks]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

 

I usually insert my needle (from the front, although Paul would disagree), then screw in my nozzle (air & paint) without tightening the needle nut at all.

Then he's wrong, it's the only logical way to both remove and insert the needle, why would you drag paint coated needle backwards through seals and packing or insert it forwards and risk bending or damaging the delicate tip?

[P_Budzik]

Y

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by P_Budzik
Please don't use asterisked out profanity.

[little-cars]

4 hours ago, M1ks said:

Then he's wrong, it's the only logical way to both remove and insert the needle, why would you drag paint coated needle backwards through seals and packing or insert it forwards and risk bending or damaging the delicate tip?

The manufacturers instructions are their recommendations, we all find  workarounds that work for us. Putting it back in from the back, you have the needle chuck to align the needle with the needle seal O rings & nozzle, putting it in from the front, you have the flat back of the needle that has to fit through the needle seal without any guide to centre it.

[cmatthewbacon]

3 hours ago, Paul Budzik said:

Here's Kurt Lybecker ... Iwata lead tech ... if you send you're Micron into Iwata/Media for repairs after you've mess up the tip from screwing and unscrewing it ... he's the guy who's going to fix it ... He's also a great airbrush artist ...

And Terry Hill ... he's forgot more about airbrushes than you'll every know ...

NOW I know what I'm doing wrong with my airbrush... totally inadequate facial hair. That's it, no more Gillette Fusion Pro-Glide for me. ;-P

 

(Irony aside, thanks for the very useful videos, Paul!)

 

best,

M.

[M1ks]

6 hours ago, Paul Budzik said:

Yea ... you're just a regular sharp-cat Mr Newbie ...

Moi?

Mr Newbie because I don't have many posts on this forum?
That's because I don't post spuriously, nor do I tear into others for trying to help someone!

On that note, you're not leagues ahead with the post numbers so maybe haul in that 'tude a little?

I've been modelling and spraying for 15-20 years, (after returning from being a warbird making brush wielding kid many years before) and years prior to airbrushing I was spraying with big boys toys sprayguns on 1:1 scale. 

I know one end of an AB from the other ta V much.

 

Quote

Here's Kurt Lybecker ... Iwata lead tech ... if you send you're Micron into Iwata/Media for repairs after you've mess up the tip from screwing and unscrewing it

That's nice of him, I've not needed his services in the last 15 years of stripping cleaning and re-assembling both my cheap chinese Iwata clone and my Iwata and honestly, if they expected said item to fail on such a frequency, that's poor QC, (my very first single action Badger with a PLASTIC screw thread in the cap and is 25 years old still works and has been stripped and cleaned frequently during it's use!)
Things are designed with threads for a reason!

In all those years I've replaced one needle / nozzle combo on the chinese brush due to me fumbling said AB and dropping it on the needle and punching it through the nozzle splitting it, the needle is still OK, sitting there as a spare, it was simply as cheap to get a replacement of both than to just get a nozzle.

Further to this, once a year or so, I used to completely strip and ultrasonic clean the AB's and despite my thorough cleaning regimen, some tiny flecks of paint still appeared!

based on this and my previous years of experience spraying, no-one is going to convince me a 'flush through' is thoroughly cleaning any spraygun.

Also, *your and *you've messed or *you mess if we're picking at things

 

Quote

 

And Terry Hill ... he's forgot more about airbrushes than you'll every know ...

That's simply a ridiculous statement, an AB is a physical paint spraying device and isn't an evolving organism and knowledge of such is finite, I guarantee, this person, nor I, nor anyone who knows the mechanical why's and wherefore's of an AB knows any more or any less than anyone else or could even forget more than someone else could know.

Quote

 

so I guess they're all fools too ...

I didn't say that, don't put words in my mouth.
My comment, and this in reply to  little-cars too to hopefully clarify, was tongue in cheek, (note the winky emoticon), the use of this was intended to convey the tongue in cheek nature because written words on a forum cannot carry intoned meaning.
I believe my method IS a better one, (it's also technically not my method but one taught to me by older and wiser paint sprayers many moons ago) and I'll happily explain why, i'll bet there are heaps of modellers who divert from the printed assembly and painting instructions, surely, if they're the manufacturers guidelines they must be correct? (see where I'm going with that?)

However, I'll explain for anyone interested.
The needle gets paint stuck to it which is nigh on impossible to shift purely by flushing, drawing it backwards drags said paint THROUGH the teflon or rubber seal slowly degrading / eroding it, that seals purpose is to prevent paint seeping back into the trigger section and gumming up the works which are hard to access for cleaning.

The first thing I do with a new AB or would do with a new needle is gently chamfer the back / blunt end of the needle with some very fine wet n dry, 1200 grit or similar, this prevents any burrs tearing the seal and is the main reason the instructions say to insert it from the back, but think logically, if you butt the point against the inside of the body whilst trying to insert it from the back of the brush you will burr/blunt/bend it easily, if you butt the thick edge against the bowl re-inserting it it won't harm anything.

 

All that said, that's my reasonings, there are different ways to approach the job of stripping and cleaning but that's the method I promote and condone for the reasons specified, I've never needed to replace a seal in any of the brushes I've had, i've never used or needed to use any lubricant on the needle and they all work flawlessly and I know they'll operate first time I fire up the compressor for a session because of that thorough nature of cleaning.

 

Each to their own otherwise but to clarify once more, I did not insult anyone, I did not call anyone 'fools', the comment about it being the wrong way, while my belief generally, was tongue in cheek, (wink emote), because I know and respect other peoples decision to use whatever method they wish, if you want to polish your spectacles with sandpaper i'll tell you it's not the best thing to do but respect your decision regardless as they're yours.

 

To the OP, I do hope you resolve your airbrush troubles as I know a good many H&S users who laud their products so once sorted i'm sure you'll enjoy using it again.
That's my final word and input done for this thread though I think now.

 

Thanks

Edited September 2, 2017 by M1ks

[armored76]

Thanks for the videos, Paul! They do come in useful.

 

While we all have our techniques, there is more than one valid way of doing things. I was disassembling my Iwata clone pulling the needle backwards and pushing it back from the back simply because I didn't wanted to remove the threaded nozzle each time after breaking one. Now with the H&S being held by the cap it is much easier to remove it so I switched to front removal and insertion. Let's just say none of the ways are wrong per se with the right amount of attention.

 

Thanks again for all your help! I can hardly wait to give this a try when I'm back home, next week!

[armored76]

I had another go at it today while trying to apply a clear gloss coat. Increased pressure to around 18-20 psi, using Revell's acrylic thinner with their gloss and with the "air first, paint second" method the situation might be a tad better now. Still after about 10 minutes, the tip was clogged to the point where absolutely no paint would come out. After disassembling the airbrush for cleaning I noticed there was what seemed to be dried-up paint in the nozzle's tip (the clear gloss I was spraying).

 

I was thinking about switching to the larger, 0.4mm nozzle but after this I'm not sure that would work any better...

 

On a side note, I packed out my old no-name brush and put it back in almost immediately Not being an airbrush snob myself, I loved that gun before. Now, it just doesn't seem right in my hands...

[armored76]

The saga continues! I was using a variety of MR. Paint "lacquers" lately which were flowing excellently. No clogging, no spitting, no worries except the smell. While I was almost sold on getting a larger batch of these paint, I've heard good things about the new AK Real Colors line which are supposedly odourless and I have reports of them working with my exact setup. Now, I'm torn between getting a new line of paints or cashing out for a 0.4 or even 0.6 mm needle/nozzle/cap setup.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

Cristian