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Ade H

NZ Sherman III Tiger Lil at Cassino

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Ade H    88
Posted (edited)

I'm about to use Dragon's Sherman III kit to build a New Zealand 20th Regiment vehicle, Tiger Lil, at Cassino in 1944, but I'm no Sherman expert, so I'd value some advice. It doesn't need to be 100% micrometre perfect, but I'd like to get the obvious things right. Here's what I've surmised or discerned so far...

 

It seems that it had the solid wheels and the simpler of the two types of drive sprocket.

Probably the straight type of return roller bracket.

No sand shields, of course.

 

I've read the review at PMMS, which gives lots of detail corrections/refinements generally. It mentions that the aerial mount doesn't suit a British 19 set, but did the NZ armoured divisions use British radios or original equipment?

 

I was also wondering about some of the casting marks, especially on the upper surface of the final drive casing: the lettering looks modern, different to the number on the underside, and there appears to be a copyright symbol in there. Are they right? Here's a pic at https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6313d01.htm

 

Any other tips welcome.

Edited by Ade H

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Bullbasket    1,937
54 minutes ago, Ade H said:

I'm about to use Dragon's Sherman III kit to build a New Zealand 20th Div vehicle, Tiger Lil, at Cassino in 1944, but I'm no Sherman expert, so I'd value some advice. It doesn't need to be 100% micrometre perfect, but I'd like to get the obvious things right. Here's what I've surmised or discerned so far...

 

It seems that it had the solid wheels and the simpler of the two types of drive sprocket.

Probably the straight type of return roller bracket.

No sand shields, of course.

 

I've read the review at PMMS, which gives lots of detail corrections/refinements generally. It mentions that the aerial mount doesn't suit a British 19 set, but did the NZ armoured divisions use British radios or original equipment?

 

I was also wondering about some of the casting marks, especially on the upper surface of the final drive casing: the lettering looks modern, different to the number on the underside, and there appears to be a copyright symbol in there. Are they right? Here's a pic at https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6313d01.htm

 

Any other tips welcome.

I know that you said that you don't want to be 100% correct, but if you want to build Tiger Lil, you are most definitely using the wrong kit. The Dragon kit has cast drivers hoods, but they are the later type. Tiger Lil was quite an early one with direct vison hoods. If you want to build Tiger Lil, then Tasca do the right one.

 

John.

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Ade H    88

B***er it! I already have the Bison decals and I can't afford a Tasca kit even if I could find one. Sometimes, ignorance really is bliss!

 

Is there anything remotely related which this kit would suit, other than the kit's markings? Any unit from Italy, preferably NZ, but if not then British. I have an ancestral link to the Italian campaign, so I had to have those decals when I saw them.

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Bullbasket    1,937
36 minutes ago, Ade H said:

there anything remotely related which this kit would suit, other than the kit's markings? Any unit from Italy, preferably NZ, but if not then British. I have an ancestral link to the Italian campaign, so I had to have those decals when I saw them.

Give me a few hours, I'm just about to take my son to the airport, and I'll find something suitable for you.

 

John.

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JackG    1,711

I've seen it stated that the Kiwis likely used all three types of driver hoods found on the Sherman III - the problem will be finding a photo to match the build to an exact vehicle.   About the radios, I imagine these were British lend lease which were in turn given to New Zealand.  The unit in question trained for a year in Egypt, and it was there that they received their Shermans?

 

For casting marks, the copyright symbol is correct, see here:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/casting_markings/casting_markings.html

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

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Das Abteilung    185

The Tasca DV Sherman III is still out there.  Two have gone on eBay in the last couple of weeks for about £40: I got one of them.  That's about what you typically pay for the Dragon version, which you can probably sell on.

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Bullbasket    1,937

I've got the Jeffrey Plowman book on the Shermans in New Zealand service 1943-45 and there are several photos and profiles of Sherman lll's . Trouble is, the photos don't give clear views of the drivers hoods and the profiles, because they are artists impressions, also don't differentiate between DV hoods and later cast hoods. If you want, I can send the profiles to you and then you can decide as to whether they are suitable for what you want.

 

John.

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Ade H    88

Thanks very much for the kind offer, John, but I won't impose on you too much! If I saw anything suitable, I suspect that I may not find decals for it anyway. I'll keep an eye on the decal market for a match, but otherwise, I'll build this one OOB and keep the Bison decals for the possibility of a Dragon or Tasca DV within budget. I only paid £25 for this one, but that's exceptional.

 

Thanks again for your help.

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GrzeM    192

What about this Dragon?

53aa8d7d18772716b9fc8e570e10c4e9.jpg

BTW, there are some photos of NZ Shermans repaired and used in Monte Cassino by Poles in May 1944. Maybe some of them woud fit?

 

There are decals for 2 Polish Corps in Italy available, some Sherman III are included.

Edited by GrzeM

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Ade H    88

@GrzeM That kit has already come up. It may be a possibility in the distant future, but see my comments about the cost. Regarding decals: as I described above, my reason for choosing New Zealand armour was due to a familial link.

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GrzeM    192

OK, I've got something, but still I'm not sure if it will fit your needs...

Three abandoned on the Monte Cassino Cavendish Road NZ Shermans from the C Squadron of the 20 Tank Regiment have been repaired and used by the Poles.

Here are photos of two of them:

13b1f8a0785614f7.jpg

The first one has red square with "6" - it's an original NZ marking denoting 6th vehicle of the 2nd squadron. It is not possible to determine the type of the driver's hatches, as these are covered by sandbags and tracks... Maybe you can do it like this?

 

ef69312fba526c3e.jpg

The second one has the circle similar to Tiger Lil one (original NZ marking), but the hatches are of the third type: welded ones. Maybe you can modify the Dragon cast hatches with the plastic card?

Edited by GrzeM

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Ade H    88

Thanks for the info, @GrzeM, but I will just have to keep an eye on the decal market for now to see what's available. If the New Zealanders had some non-DV M4s, which makes sense, then something will come to light. Otherwise, scratch building is always an option for me as I don't mind that at all.

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Bullbasket    1,937

This is just an idea. Have you thought about having somebody produce some decals for you? It's not as difficult or expensive as some would imagine. I've done it on two occasions. Ernst Peddinghaus of Peddinghaus Decals will produce them for you. He just requires some photos or drawings of the tank/vehicle that you want produced showing the markings and he'll do the rest. He produced RMASG Centaur markings for me in 1/48th scale and also IDF M.50 markings in the same scale. I think that on both occasions, he charged me about 15 euros. I believe he is able to keep the cost reasonable as he then incorporates the sheet into his catalogue list.

As I say, just an idea, but worth considering.

 

John.

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JackG    1,711

I don't know if making more decals is the answer, it would be just spending more money on something that is not a definite subject in terms of an exact vehicle.  I'd just use the Bison decals, even mix and match to create a set of markings that is plausible, but at the same time can't be disproved.

 

All the squadron markings would be yellow, as the 19th was the second senior brigade. 

 

Brit-Italy-markings-05.jpg

 

The only real problem in terms of accuracy, is the vehicle's census number (that's the serial in white and begins with the letter 'T').  Without an actual photo, it is difficult, but you can kind of fluff it by altering a few numbers here and there.  Just alter the kit's provided serial number slightly to keep the rivet counter's wondering, lol.

 

-----------------------------------

 

There is this book, but as you say, don't want to sink more money into this project.

 

nz.jpg

 

http://www.barbarossabooks.eu/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_397&products_id=2482

 

regards,

Jack

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Pete M.    48

Hi Ade. To answer some of your questions on 'Tiger Lil', I too believe it is a 'direct vision' hull, but the spare track mounted on the front hides the hatches, so very hard to tell.

The NZ 4th Armoured Brigade used the British No.19 radios in all it's armoured vehicles, so will require both the A and B type aerials on the turret.

 

if you can wait until this weekend, I'll post a photo of said 'beasty', and add more notes to help with your build of a Kiwi Sherman III in Italy.

 

Cheers,

Pete M. :cheers:

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Pete M.    48

Hi Ade. As promised, some details on 'Tiger LIL'. Firstly, two pics that may help: (Hope this works as I'm trying out Imgur for my photo hosting)!

 

WO2rVMm.jpg


SBIH4Ra.jpg

 

I wouldn't worry about the drivers hood style as the spare track obscures those in the photo (it does appear to be the early DV style, hence the track reinforcements).

Simple front sprocket type (unlike the artwork), straight return roller mounts, early one piece transmission housing, and Crusader type turret bin used by many of the Kiwi Shermans.

 

Narrow gun mantlet with cheeks, both No.19 radio aerials, and POW container rack on the right front mudguard. 20th Armoured regiment tac sign on the right hand rear hull plate (silver fern in black over over 52 in white on red square).

Silver fern only on the aerial pot on the right hand glasis plate. T48 type tracks.

 

Colours as per the plate, Light Mud and Blue Black.

 

As most have commented on this post, the Tasca/Asuka kits are far more refined, but one pays the price. The Dragon kits with some 'fettling' do come out rather well.


And a link to help refine the Dragon Sherman kits that may be of help to you: http://paulbudzik.com/tools-techniques/Sherman Construction/sherman-construction.html

Cheers,

Pete M.

Edited by Pete M.

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