vppelt68 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 I've seen pics of B-17 F:s with improved cheek gun positions with the bulges like B-17 G:s, but in their original order of staggering left/right per a F not a G. Should I wish to replicate this in 1:72, probably using the recent RoG kit, would my only option be scratchbuilding or is there something available from the aftermarket companies? My second question concerns the RoG kit's less than perfect nose cones; any improvement available there too? V-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael51 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Hi, Assuming your inquiry relates to Eighth Air Force ETO aircraft, Is your observation about 'their original order of staggering'referring to the cheek gun positions or the waist gun positions? If it refers to the waist guns, I believe the staggered positions were introduced reasonably early into the G production line. The earliest batches had the waist positions in line with one another. Should you be referring to the bulged cheek gun installations, I do not recall seeing these in line: only staggered. Are you able to date the images you refer to by virtue of a given date, the more colourful group markings of B-17s in the latter part of the war or by, say, a predominance of natural metal finish over OD types? The reason for asking is that towards the end of the war, a number of groups appear to have removed the distinctive chin turret on their G models. This may give the appearance of a G looking more like an F. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted August 27, 2017 Author Share Posted August 27, 2017 Michael, thanks for your interest. Yes, I'm talking about the 8th AF and B-17 cheek gun positions only. I'm interested in the late F to early G transmission period and don't yet have a specific prototype selected. I prefer the period when the B-17 looked like a warplane, not an airliner, so OD over NG, before the divisional coloured empennage; that would be from late -43 until mid -44, right? V-P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Hello, vppelt68 I believe what are you looking for is a version of B-17F with G type cheek gun positions. There are rather crude sketches of such B-17F version in Squadron/Signal's In action publications, but I have yet to see a photo of such a Flying Fortress. I did see photos of F Fortresses with nose guns in G-type configuration (gun position right behind bombardier's bubble on port side and staggered by one window on the starboard side), however these were covered with early, flat type of transparencies. I will keep looking, as making such a model of B-17F would be in my interest me, too. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted August 27, 2017 Author Share Posted August 27, 2017 Thanks Jure! Just to make sure we're talking of the same issue, here's the little I think I know: B-17 F had cheek guns through flat panels in 2nd left and 1st right position. B-17 G had cheek guns through built up bulges in 1st left and 2nd right position. Upgraded F:s got the bulges added but retained the original 2L and 1R staggering order. Am I right? Here's a magnificent view of an upgraded F somewhere over Germany; it also appears to have a twin-mg installment through upper part of nose cone. I like that! V-P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Hello, vppelt68 Exactly. What I am after is a B-17F with improved cheek gun positions as seen later on B-17G, that is first left and second right. As I said, there is such a sketch in B-17 In Action booklet, but unfortunately I was unable to find it on the web right now. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted August 27, 2017 Author Share Posted August 27, 2017 ...and here's "Butch" with a text caption to make clear what all this is about! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Hello Well, I found some photos to illustrate what I meant at last: https://100thbg.com/index.php?option=com_bombgrp&view=personnel&id=3146&Itemid=122 The bomber in question, B-17F 42-6087 LD-Z Royal Flush, also had additional nose transparency machine gun installed. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 These extra guns were an 'in theater' fit by some ground crews. They were widespread on 'E' and 'F' models, but by no means a factory fit. Some had single guns, and some twin as illustrated. These were done prior to the 'G' model to deter head on attacks. I have never heard of late 'G' models deleting the chin turret - some replaced the ball turret with a 'Mickey' radome, and some B-24s deleted the ball turret, but only after air superiority was gained. As always, check the details for the aircraft you are modelling. As for the OP, you will need to do your own modifications, with some extra guns of your choice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Hello After some Sunday afternoon book browsing and web surfing several more B-17F with G-type cheek guns (first window on port side, second on starboard) surfaced. Curiously, all those identified by serial number had been manufactured by Lockheed Vega plant. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Warning question coming Maybe someone can confirm this ? I remember reading somewhere that the very end of production "F" fortresses came with the "G" type chin turret ? Does anyone know if thats true or not ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 When we have got the bottom of this, let's try again with the B-24 I have a book called Consolidated Mess......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Hello, Corsairfoxfouruncle Yes, this is correct. I do not know about other manufacturers, but Douglas B-17F-75-DL aircraft had been equipped with Bendix chin turrets, but lacked cheek guns. And, just to spice things up, how about B-17G with B-17F cheek guns' configuration? Check these websites: http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/6809 http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b-17-flying-fortress/b-17g-390th-bomb-group-nose-art-and-crew-photo-starks-ark/ http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/6799 http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b-17/aces-n-eights-nose-art-b-17-42-37888-at-alconbury-527th-bs-379th-bg/ All these bombers belonged to B-17G-15-DL production batch. My guess is this configuration was leftover from YB-40 and XB-40 program, since these heavy bomber escorts had been produced by Douglas. Cheers Jure 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomprobert Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 25 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said: Warning question coming Maybe someone can confirm this ? I remember reading somewhere that the very end of production "F" fortresses came with the "G" type chin turret ? Does anyone know if thats true or not ? Yes this is correct. The last two batches of Douglas built F models had the chin turret installed. They left the factory without cheek guns fitted and had the earlier F style top turret dome. In regard to an earlier question about some G models having their chin turrets removed - this is also correct but was mainly done by the 94th and 398th bomb groups late in hostilities in an attempt to increase speed and bomb load when the Luftwaffe threat was greatly diminished. In some instances, a single hand-held .50 cal was installed in the nose transparency similar to that fitted in the earlier F model. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 33 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said: Warning question coming Maybe someone can confirm this ? I remember reading somewhere that the very end of production "F" fortresses came with the "G" type chin turret ? Does anyone know if thats true or not ? Yes, off the top of my head I'm not sure which plant(s), but some of the last Fs did have the chin turret 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Some info about B-17Gs here, namely the parts: http://aviationarchives.blogspot.ca/2017/08/b-17g-parts-catalog.html pg 110 shows the cheek windows and pg 238 has the cheek guns. Jari 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 35 minutes ago, tomprobert said: Yes this is correct. The last two batches of Douglas built F models had the chin turret installed. They left the factory without cheek guns fitted and had the earlier F style top turret dome. In regard to an earlier question about some G models having their chin turrets removed - this is also correct but was mainly done by the 94th and 398th bomb groups late in hostilities in an attempt to increase speed and bomb load when the Luftwaffe threat was greatly diminished. In some instances, a single hand-held .50 cal was installed in the nose transparency similar to that fitted in the earlier F model. Yep- the last 86 Douglas-built F models had the chin turret fitted- the B-17F-75-DL block. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael51 Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) Some notes with sources that maybe of help: The removal of the Bendix chin turret, along with the Sperry ball turret, was undertaken by some groups toward the end of the war. This is reported, along with an accompanying photograph of 94th BG B-17G Ice Cold Katie in Freeman, The Mighty Eighth in Colour, p.29. B-17F nose armament appears to have enjoyed varieties of application: no large side windows with no guns, large windows with guns, large bulged windows with guns placed as either the first or second window from the nose and a smaller window variant with nose gun. The five variations are illustrated as line drawings in Davis’ B-17 in Action number 63, p.37. B-17s were subject to three main levels of modification. The first was US-based modifications specific to theatre requirements. The second was in-theatre modifications drawing from the immediacy of operational experiences. These observations are made in Freeman’s undated but very early (possibly the late 1960s) publication, Profile number 205: Boeing B-17G Flying Fortress, p.12ff. To these I would venture a third and even more immediate, theatre-based set of modifications; those undertaken on the airfields themselves. The various gun mountings in the Perspex nose might be the best example; one gun in the centre, two guns in the centre, or a permutation with guns offset to port or starboard of the nose perspex centreline. I would suggest it is from this third stage of modification that the varieties of bulged cheek gun mountings emanated. On the first page of the above source, Freeman also observes that early blocks of Douglas-built B-17Gs appeared, seemingly without the bulged cheek positions but with the Bendix chin turret. Whilst Douglas continued to identify these as F rather than G variants, the USAAF determination to categorise all chin-turreted B-17s as G variants prevailed. Michael Edited August 27, 2017 by Michael Enright Alzheimer remembers 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted August 27, 2017 Author Share Posted August 27, 2017 Thank you all for your replies! Scratchbuilding it is, should I want to model one. Regarding the pic I posted of the Fortress flattening factories, is the identity of that plane common knowledge but I'm just (not yet) aware of it? V-P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Hello, vppelt 68 I do not know about the common knowledge of the plane's identity, but this photo has been around for quite a long time. Speaking off the top of my head I believe it has been first published in Life magazine during the war. I have seen the photo for the first time as a child in our translation of Piekalkiewicz's book Spionen, Agenten, Soldaten more than forty years ago, where its caption incorrectly described it as V-1 site bombing raid photo. The B-17F in question is B-17F-50-DL 42-3352 Virgin's Delight from 410 BS, 94 BG. Here is the link to a short history of a plane: https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/virgins-delight/ Take a good look at the second photo. You will notice additional external bomb racks with two 500 lb. bombs. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted August 28, 2017 Author Share Posted August 28, 2017 Thank you Jure! V-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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