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Why do US Navy ships keep colliding?


Latinbear

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In 1988 my old ship HMS Southampton was in the Gulf when MV Tor Bay rammed her. She was lucky not to be sunk. That incident was caused by an inexperienced OOW onboard HMS Southampton miscalculating his manouevres when taking up station alongside MV Tor Bay. The CO, PWO and NO were also culpable. Board of Inquiry report here.

 

Dave

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56 minutes ago, LaurieS said:

Latest from a US naval man.

 

That puts all our theories to the test ? But then do they not practice steerage with their props. Assume they have two. Do they have bow thrusters ?

 

The USS John McCain suffered a steering malfunction when it collided with an oil tanker near Singapore on Monday, according to a US Navy official who spoke to CNN.

The crew was unable to utilize the warship’s backup steering systems as it approached the Strait of Malacca, although steering was recovered after the collision, another Navy official told the network.

I had missed this post earlier. And if true it is a damning statement. Because the steering system is dual redundant plus the ship has two prop shafts. So if the wheel on the bridge fails the fall back is to close up the emergency team in the tiller flat as fast as possible and switch to independent shaft operation. In the Royal Navy when steaming in close company with other ships or in closed waters (say the Malacca Straits) then the watertight integrity of the ship is increased and personnel (Special Sea Duty Men) are closed up at the emergency steering position should such an event occur.  It seems that the USN (or this particular ship) are very lax at such things. I am gob smacked!

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1 hour ago, davecov said:

In 1988 my old ship HMS Southampton was in the Gulf when MV Tor Bay rammed her. She was lucky not to be sunk. That incident was caused by an inexperienced OOW onboard HMS Southampton miscalculating his manouevres when taking up station alongside MV Tor Bay. The CO, PWO and NO were also culpable. Board of Inquiry report here.

 

Dave

Dave, an old oppo of mine was on the Southampton Ro1(T) Andy "Scouse" Rice, not on watch when it happened, in his pit (Standard Drills for him, flat back sod) ;) I was on the Glamorgan with him, we met up for a wet in Pompey said it was bloody horrendous (Clean version for our readers)

 

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1 hour ago, Paul E said:

I had missed this post earlier. And if true it is a damning statement. Because the steering system is dual redundant plus the ship has two prop shafts. So if the wheel on the bridge fails the fall back is to close up the emergency team in the tiller flat as fast as possible and switch to independent shaft operation. In the Royal Navy when steaming in close company with other ships or in closed waters (say the Malacca Straits) then the watertight integrity of the ship is increased and personnel (Special Sea Duty Men) are closed up at the emergency steering position should such an event occur.  It seems that the USN (or this particular ship) are very lax at such things. I am gob smacked!

 

Paul absolutely, she should have been closed up to their equivalent of 3 Yankee, tiller flat closed up and same with the SSP, if she was in difficulties standard drill must surely be that she was on emergency steering, also if the skipper was worth his salt he would be steering on engines at the time and on the bridge, calling up the Merchant man stating his intentions and that he was in difficulties, my other question is; were their RAMS lights not lit and no shapes hoisted, the Yanks love all that Buntingery vis signalling stuff? I would say it all comes down to poor seamanship, lack of experience and now my opinion of working with them over 25 years on and off, all the kit in the world yet they still seem to struggle to use it effectively. Their ratings are never a patch on ours and cannot for the love of a wet think on their own two feet and act independently. The OOW, and Bridge team must have been supremely gash! Or am I wrong? Flame away!

 

The saddest thing is that this incident needlessly cost the lives of young sailors who were below decks. My heart goes out to the families of those who tragically crossed the bar, time to raise a glass

 

 

Edited by chuckb1
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6 hours ago, Paul E said:

I had missed this post earlier.

I missed it as well, I think LaurieS must have posted whilst I was writing my post.

6 hours ago, davecov said:

In 1988 my old ship HMS Southampton was in the Gulf when MV Tor Bay rammed her. She was lucky not to be sunk. That incident was caused by an inexperienced OOW onboard HMS Southampton miscalculating his manouevres when taking up station alongside MV Tor Bay. The CO, PWO and NO were also culpable. Board of Inquiry report here.

I was on the Tor Bay up the gulf shortly after that incident, we did a couple of crew exchanges with one of the 42's (can't rememember which one), half a dozen RN types came over to us for an hour or so on a rib for a look around, and a few of our boys went over there for the grand tour whilst we steamed in company.

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According to DM today the commander of the US 7th fleet has been relieved of duty following these incidents.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4815504/The-Latest-Navy-dismisses-7th-Fleet-commander.html

 

Scenario:

Arabian Gulf, Gulf War 1. Hostilities over.

HMS London in port at Bahrain after dark.

US CBG sailing past, heading North.

HMS London slips moorings and leaves port: Skipper: Lights off, radars off, radio silence, 8 kts. Lets see how close we can get before the yanks spot us.

London makes like cargo vessel and approaches CBG from port quarter. No reaction from CBG.

London penetrates outer perimeter of CBG and approaches to within 1/2 nm of carrier.

Skipper: OK, turn on the main radar...............

The entire CBG lit up like a Christmas tree.

 

This direct from my neighbour who was ASW rating on the London.

 

Poor watch keeping is no stranger to the USN..........an ENTIRE CBG, and nobody saw a Type 42 coming.

 

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21 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Another 'stupid' question. Oil tankers are double skinned, I take it warships are not? Would it make any difference?

I understood newer build warships have double bottoms around fuel tanks.  In any event,  warships rely primarily on extensive subdivision of the ship into many watertight compartments so that the effects of any damage are contained as far as possible.   I presume the impact point on the McCain was a messdeck but the alarm was raised too late (if at all) meaning not all the occupants at the moment of collision were able to get out before being overcome and the compartment had to be sealed off. 

 

I did visit one of this class about 12 years ago and noted the escape arrangements in the main machinery spaces which involved a vertical escape chute with ladders going up several deck levels.  I don't remember the same in the messdecks which seemed to hold quite a large number of occupants compared with RN practice.

 

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Absolutely, ok round the fresh water tanks, engine room spaces and fuel tanks all are double bottomed with crawl spaces. All other compartments are single skinned and the thickness of the ships sides would shock you. Hence why the TA Leanders, 22's and 23's all eventually cracked. the stress on the hull from the tail when its wet is huge, there is so much torsional twist throughout the length of the ship.

 

Simulators, yes at the RN Maritime Ops School HMS Collingwood, full mock ups of weapon systems (Xbox on steroids) also all the ops room for PWO and ops room training for all warfare operators. For Signal Staff (Was going to put men there) there are the fleetwork trainers, these rooms enable you to run simulations for Sector Screening, OOW mans, ras'ing, convoy work, working with RFA and STUFT ships, transiting in formation. 

 

Conning the ship, used to have all the kit at HMS Raleigh and Collingwood. The RN puts great store and effort in ship handling from the Skipper down to the second officer of the watch and the whole ships company, evolutions for OST, BOST are intense and it really is pass or fail in relation to operational readiness, think that is why I do not flap now I am a Deputy Head teacher when OFSTED rock up, after FOST staff (The green wreckers) have rinsed the hell out of you for six weeks. OFSTED for 2 days or 4 days if you are gash are a cake walk :lol: 

 

Its amazing what you remember from your youth! Have to agree with all that has been said re our colonial cousins, their kit is second to none, but be it 80's 90's 2000's or today, there preparedness is out weighed (pun not intended) by their over zealous "Anchors Aweigh Boys" attitude. Nice to have all the whistles and bells but you have to be able to use it.

 

Question re the impact point, yep I would say a mess deck, bloody awful. Would all be racked out, then the oggin would have poured in as the DDG bounced back off the tanker, the crew in their racks would have then been sucked out the hole, would not wish that on anyone. All of us on here must have done the DRIU at Whale Island or if you are elderly like me, the Fire School and Damage Control Unit at Raleigh as a sprog as well. Either way, when the ship is rolling and toppers with Oggin, it is truly scary, pitch black, alarms going no red lighting as the circuit would have been tripped for everything ship dead in the water with no steerage way. Jesus I feel for those kids on the McCain. 

 

What has gripped my Gorilla are the You Tube American conspiracy theorists, clueless. I was on Glamorgan in 86, we had just done DTS out in the Windies prior to JMC 866, we were coming back over the pond and RV'd with RFA Fort Grange to ammunition ship as we had used a lot of 4.5, 3", 20mm and 40mm. We took up our RAS course and started to Jack Stay across all the ammunition and stores, we were running down sea as it was roughers, I was in my pit, as I had done the long morning. 3pm the MOTHER of all bangs! woke us all up, as we got out of our pits, all the hatches shut down to 1 Zulu from 3 Yankee, basically we were locked in to put it in civilian speak. Could hear the six short blasts of the siren 3 decks down, and feel the ship heel over to Stbd. The skipper was carrying out Emergency Six and a Corpen November (Emergency breakaway with a wheel of unspecified amount). Broke away, all lines gone and we slowed down. The pipe was to reduce to 3 yankee and check for damage, the Counties were tough ships, Glam proved that in 82. I had both the dogs (4-8pm) got ready to go on watch, being a nosey sod I went up through the AX hatch past the Slug launcher and up on to the flight deck. Where the guard rails should have been next to the flight deck nets... holey moley all gone/bent and nosing over the side where the CBM and the Chief Ship Wright were hanging over the side, a whopping great dent and a split in the ships side. That was just from a bounce off the RFA, what the crew on the McCain had to deal with must have been terrifying.

 

Dit spun, Albert moment over. Nothing to see move along chaps :D

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OOW, OST, BOST,  OFSTED,  FOST  ??????? Please. I'm not ex Navy, but still find this thread hugely interesting till I reach a post like yours that becomes gibberish because of all the acronyms, which might mean something to ex Navy personal but nowt to us full time civilians. No doubt there is an acronym for us too, uncomplementary all in likelihood too I'd guess. :)

Steve.

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9 hours ago, stevehnz said:

OOW, OST, BOST,  OFSTED,  FOST  ??????? Please. I'm not ex Navy, but still find this thread hugely interesting till I reach a post like yours that becomes gibberish because of all the acronyms, which might mean something to ex Navy personal but nowt to us full time civilians. No doubt there is an acronym for us too, uncomplementary all in likelihood too I'd guess. :)

Steve.

A fair point Steve and maybe an Abbreviations and Acronyms thread needs to be created. However let me enlighten you on those which you have listed here:

 

OOW - Officer of the Watch. The Officer responsible for the bridge and ship maintaining it's course and look out. As the captain can't be on the bridge driving the ship all the time, this is delegated to the Officer of the Watch. If the ship needs to change course or take avoiding action the Officer of the Watch defers to the Captain for orders.

 

OST - Operational Sea Training. All ships in the Royal Navy have to undertake periodic Operational Training which is run out of Plymouth. The Operational Sea Training organisation is run under the auspices of a Flag Officer and the organisation is collectively known as FOST (Flag Officer Sea Training). BOST is Basic Operational Sea Training and last 6 weeks and tests the ship and its crew for scenarios ranging from high tempo warfare with real submarines and aircraft to natural disaster relief. The staff of FOST are senior and experienced Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers and are very distinguishable as they wear green jackets. The staff who run the damage control part of the course are known as wreckers, I think you can hazard a guess why.

 

OPS Room - is the Operations Room or Command Information Centre (CIC) in US Navy parlance. The OPS room is the sensor and war fighting hub of the ship and is full of computer screens displaying graphics of the radar and other sensors fitted on the ship. The picture displayed on the screens is known as the PLOT.

 

RFA - Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Unlike the Royal New Zealand Navy and the Royal Australian Navy the refuelling tankers that accompany the fleet are not part of the Royal Navy but are manned by civilian sailors of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and the ships fly the Blue Ensign.

 

DRIU - Damage Repair Instruction Unit. This is a metal box on hydraulic legs in which you put sailors. Then the lights are switched off and the box is filled with water whilst simultaneously being shaken about. The aim for those inside is to stop as much of the water getting in to the box as possible before your head touches the deck head (ceiling). There is a fire-fighting equivalent which substitutes fire for water though thankfully they don't shake the fire units about. All Ratings and Officers have to undertake the Sea Safety course before they join their ships which includes the DRIU and Fire Fighting Units.

 

TA - Towed Array. which is a Sonar that is towed behind the ship, it acts like a big sea anchor and does horrible things to the ship structure and movement.

 

STUFT - Ship Taken Up from Trade. These are civilian vessels commandeered for Naval service.

 

JMC - Joint Maritime Course. This is an international training exercise that is held off the North Coast of Scotland  a couple of times a year which frequently degenerates into the Royal Navy showing off how it can operate in atrocious weather when all the other participant nations exercise common sense and seek shelter!

 

RAS - Replenishment at Sea. This is where the ship comes up alongside a fleet tanker at sea to refuel and store.

 

CBM - Chief Bosun Mate. The senior seamanship specialist on the ship and is a Non Commissioned Officer. Normally big, burly and carries an impressive set of knives.

 

OFSTED has nothing to do with the Navy at all, but is an organisation in the UK that inspects schools and education facilities for standards.

 

And finally the acronym for a Civilian is a Civvie. Derogatory terms are specially reserved for Pongo's (Army) and Crabs (Air Force). :D 

 

I hope this helps.

Edited by Paul E
ammended an acronym
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Thanks Paul, that helps, I should've picked OOW if I'd thought a bit more, I must have been slightly overwhelmed by acronyms (SOBA) ;) , I did after all serve a sea going apprenticeship courtesy of Douglas ReeMan. :D . I'll stick to being a civvie now though, thanks for putting me right on that Dave. :P

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
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Apologies Steve, we hairy nether region ex matelots (Sailors) have our own unique language and set of acronyms. Jack Speak is an archaic language, Royals or Boot necks (Royal Marines Commandos and Band Service) share some of our language as well. I am fortunate/unfortunate to have had an RN cap badge and an RM one as I changed over to the Green Machine during my service career.. Oh god doing it again. :-)

 

Every other service has their own unique language, we all also have our own common one that crosses all services. Mostly it looks like we speak gibberish, Service acronyms in-dispersed with derogatory reference terms and language of the lower and upper deck

 

Douglas Reeman bless him, wrote the Matelots dit handbooks for a generation. Sadly passed away in January this year. A successful formula for all his own novels and his nom de plume of Alexander Kent. Troubled RN or RM officer, half wit evil colleague, evil nemesis and the damsel in distress. Ever the hero, he always the hero comes through in the end. HUZZAH!

 

Loved his books, I wish I had never given mine away, i am sure I had every Reeman and Kent novel printed, sadly had to get rid of everything in my mums house last year after she passed away. 

 

A right ripping read, real boys own stuff!

 

B

 

 

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Civvies, Brown jobs and crabs. They do not know what they are missing, sigh... :P

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