Yes THAT red triplane.

[Bozothenutter]

somebody should hold a referencecard next to the samples and then take a picture.

the picture and monitor should then be adjusted to match the reference card, only then would I dare to say what colour it was close to.....

Otherwise there are just too many variables in photo reproduction to make even an educated guess...

[Jeff.K]

to add to what Nick said, part of the problem is that a natural iron oxide pigment won't behave consistently compared to a modern, commercial red oxide pigment. this is why i even though we have the precise formula for PC10 (we do) there is still room for speculation, and most likely variation, as to exactly what a fresh coat of PC10 looked like. 

 

i'd bet strongly on a natural red iron oxide pigment, a natural madder lake dye, or some combination of the two. they were widely available and not expensive at the time from what i know. the distinction between pigment and dye is important as dyes are fugitive (fade) pigments, not so much (ever seen faded rust?).

 

to my eye the sensible way to approach world war one colors is to stay as close as possible to the pigments known to be used at the time as a starting point. 

 

IF Windsock based the claim that the color matched something in the madder lake range on chemical analysis then i'm all in on madder lake (less fugitive pigments have been engineered from this so our models can outlast the original dyes). that said, it sure does look like that unmistakable 'earthy' note (all oxide pigments have it) on a lot of the samples. 

 

bottom line (to me): i'm a hell of a lot more interested in confirming the pigments than matching samples to the standard color chips they *look* like. the latter, to me, is subjective, dependent on lighting conditions, physiology and experience of the observer, condition of the sample, etc. too many variables to be considered anything but opinion. 

 

so based on what i know/don't know right now, i'd go with 

 

a ) it's a mostly factory finish, due to the lack of streaking, in spite of the lack of records about a custom paint job, 
b ) i'll go with Drooling Bulldog Kraplak (Rose Madder) as it's a good approximation of a lake color that would have been widely available, and semi transparent (oxide covers almost as aggressively as titanium white and so would need a LOT of experimenting to thin it to field mod standards. 

c ) brush marks are present around the modifications and likely not on the rest of the kite (i find the photos suggestive of spray painting but far from conclusive, but we do know spray painting was not uncommon at the time). that said, the brush marks themselves shouldn't show up in 1/32 or smaller they'd be way out of scale 

[pipe dream mode]i hope some 100 percent certain information is unearthed in the meantime, i've got a long queue before i even buy a Fokker triplane, plenty of time [/end pipe dream mode]

[Nick Millman]

33 minutes ago, Beardie said:

Nick do we have accurate period examples of the Facings on Richthofens' uniform and how close a match would the Baron have found acceptable

 

I think accuracy will never be 100 percent with any WWI scheme and, when all is said and done it doesn't really matter that much as long as it is close enough to give us an idea of the colour scheme of individual fliers.

Yes, we do and I have some colour photos of tunic and cap. The facings and cap band colour are consistent with the fabric photos shown above and Humbrol 132, give or take. Which ought to be as good as "close enough".

 

Personally I would lean more towards the slightly orange red of the fabric and facings than a very dark crimson towards maroon, but each to his own. It's anecdotal but in the 1970s a former Camel ace described the Triplane to me as "bright red". It was a memorable experience to talk to a man who had seen Richthofen in the air and lived to tell the tale. 

 

Nick

[Jeff.K]

can you find two people who, in a well designed double blind study,see a lot of color chips and would agree on which red is "bright red"? i'd bet against that. i'd bet a LOT. 

[Nick Millman]

18 hours ago, Jeff.K said:

can you find two people who, in a well designed double blind study,see a lot of color chips and would agree on which red is "bright red"? i'd bet against that. i'd bet a LOT. 

I'm not a betting man. But for me the description"bright red" suggests not a very dark red, which is consistent with some of the other evidence, if not all. 

 

Nick

[Jeff.K]

for me, "bright" and "very dark" are only "bright" or "very dark" compared to other colors. looking at the samples. as words go, "bright" is usually used to refer to saturation, whereas "very dark" to value. thus it's possible for someone to describe a red as both bright and very dark. it's also possible to use "bright" to describe value. there's also a lot of physiological variation in people's color perception. 

 

on the other hand, iron oxide is iron oxide, 'rose madder' is rose madder, they refer to specific materials. these materials produce colors that will fall in a specific, predictable range. however, it's a fairly wide range, especially with natural pigments. 

[Nick Millman]

On 14 October 2017 at 8:56 AM, Jeff.K said:

Rose Madder was in common use, too, but doesn't have that oxide cast. 

 

on the other hand: 

 

note the transparency. unusual for a red oxide, typical of rose madder based reds.

Rose Madder (or Pink Madder) is a colour name variant of madder lake and is associated with several different pigment reds and in several forms, natural and synthetic. In natural form it is probably best known as Alizarin Crimson, Natural Red (NR) 8 (one of the names of which is Kraplak) but also as Madder Lake NR9, appearing in pale. medium and deep hues, the depth of colour dependent on the manufacturing process, In synthetic form it can become dull, fade and either turn more yellowish or more blueish but is associated with red hues more towards purple than orange. It is precipitated with metal salts to produce more concentrated or bright hues so there is no single Rose Madder colour.

 

There is no Rose Madder in Methuen but Madder Reds described as Blueish 11B8, Medium 10B7 and Yellowish 9A7. 

 

Nick

[Nick Millman]

39 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

for me, "bright" and "very dark" are only "bright" or "very dark" compared to other colors. looking at the samples. as words go, "bright" is usually used to refer to saturation, whereas "very dark" to value. thus it's possible for someone to describe a red as both bright and very dark. it's also possible to use "bright" to describe value. there's also a lot of physiological variation in people's color perception. 

 

on the other hand, iron oxide is iron oxide, 'rose madder' is rose madder, they refer to specific materials. these materials produce colors that will fall in a specific, predictable range. however, it's a fairly wide range, especially with natural pigments. 

You are mixing terms there. In the Munsell system darkness/lightness and saturation are separate values. The word "bright" usually means giving out or reflecting much light which infers lightness in Munsell terms whether the hue is deeply saturated or not. You wouldn't say "the room was dark and bright".

 

See above regarding Rose Madder. Specific and predictable is not really consistent with "fairly wide range"!

 

Iron oxide as a pigment can be precipitated in numerous hues and generally the ferrous content determines whether it is more yellowish or more red/brownish. There are 17 mineral reds, 31 natural reds and 289 Pigment Reds, several of which originate in iron oxides in different forms. 

 

Nick

[Jeff.K]

again, that's perception and not pigment. looking to match a Methuen or FS or Pantone or ANY such scale isn't going to be a great place to start UNLESS you've identified the pigments/dyes involved, OR the original spec states a Methuen value. 

fair enough on the term "rose madder." however, any of those terms traditionally ALL refer to dyes from the roots of the rubia tinctorium plant. German chemists developed a synthetic version, presumably less fugitive, which is one of only two legit candidates i know of for the pigment(s) used on Richtofen's ship(s). the other is red iron oxide. 

 

i'd be keen on hearing of any other pigments, but starting with Methuen, or any other color naming system rather than the most likely chemical compounds, is a waste of time. 

 

[Jeff.K]

14 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

You are mixing terms there. In the Munsell system darkness/lightness and saturation are separate values. The word "bright" usually means giving out or reflecting much light which infers lightness in Munsell terms whether the hue is deeply saturated or not. You wouldn't say "the room was dark and bright".

 

to demonstrate the equivocality of color description. i thought that was obvious. you could easily say "that's a bright yellow, whereas ochre is a dull one." 

 

the terms are basically so equivocal as to be pretty useless. 

 

14 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

Specific and predictable is not really consistent with "fairly wide range"!

regarding 'fairly wide range'.... yellow ochre and red oxide are easily recognizable as iron oxide. unmistakably so. if you're unable to spot an oxide based pigment, you've no business playing with color naming systems. that is what i mean by "specific and predictable" 

yet oxide pigments can range from yellow to dark red. that is an example of "fairly wide range." pthalocyanine blues and greens are another unmistakable pigment that can produce a "fairly wide range" of colors.

play semantics all you want, but THE WHOLE POINT is that working from words toward color is far from the way forward. 

you're pitting semantics against the chemistry of the pigments. the chemistry is a far better, far more objective bet.

once you've narrowed down the chemistry, THEN it's time to look at color samples from the real thing, in whatever state or form you can find them. if you've succeeded on matching to your eye's satisfaction, a logical next step would be eye witness descriptions. 

 

PC 10 for example: it would be silly to claim a color is "PC10" if it didn't have any ochre in it, regardless of Cecil Lewis poetically describing PC10 as "chocolate" (at sunset, btw). 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Jeff.K
added stuff after "objective bet"

[Jeff.K]

18 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

Iron oxide as a pigment can be precipitated in numerous hues and generally the ferrous content determines whether it is more yellowish or more red/brownish. There are 17 mineral reds, 31 natural reds and 289 Pigment Reds, several of which originate in iron oxides in different forms. 

 

all of which are instantly identifiable to the naked eye as "iron oxide." you seem intent on making my point. 

[Nick Millman]

11 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

all of which are instantly identifiable to the naked eye as "iron oxide." you seem intent on making my point. 

Not, not all at all!  Those are red pigments in total but only some of them originate from iron oxide as my comment already mentioned.

 

Nick

 

 

[Jeff.K]

1 minute ago, Nick Millman said:

Not, not all at all!  Those are red pigments in total but only some of them originate from iron oxide as my comment already mentioned.

 

seriously? you can't tell by eye when a pigment is oxide-based?? 

 

best of luck with your color chip matching then. 

[Nick Millman]

18 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

to demonstrate the equivocality of color description. i thought that was obvious. you could easily say "that's a bright yellow, whereas ochre is a dull one." 

 

the terms are basically so equivocal as to be pretty useless. 

 

regarding 'fairly wide range'.... yellow ochre and red oxide are easily recognizable as iron oxide. unmistakably so. if you're unable to spot an oxide based pigment, you've no business playing with color naming systems. that is what i mean by "specific and predictable" 

yet oxide pigments can range from yellow to dark red. that is an example of "fairly wide range." pthalocyanine blues and greens are another unmistakable pigment that can produce a "fairly wide range" of colors.

play semantics all you want, but THE WHOLE POINT is that working from words toward color is far from the way forward. 

you're pitting semantics against the chemistry of the pigments. the chemistry is a far better, far more objective bet.

once you've narrowed down the chemistry, THEN it's time to look at color samples from the real thing, in whatever state or form you can find them. if you've succeeded on matching to your eye's satisfaction, a logical next step would be eye witness descriptions. 

 

PC 10 for example: it would be silly to claim a color is "PC10" if it didn't have any ochre in it, regardless of Cecil Lewis poetically describing PC10 as "chocolate" (at sunset, btw). 

 

I was actually referring to the variable chemistry and colour of base pigments. Paints can be mixed from different pigments to appear nearly identical and I could not unequivocally identify the pigment origin whether I had any business "playing" with colour naming systems or not! If it was that easy there would be no forensic paint analysts or equipment!

 

Nick

[Nick Millman]

3 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

seriously? you can't tell by eye when a pigment is oxide-based?? 

 

best of luck with your color chip matching then. 

You are conflating pigments and colours again, misunderstanding my point about pigment reds and appear to be attempting to prevail in this discussion by insult.

 

Nick 

 

[Jeff.K]

3 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

I was actually referring to the variable chemistry and colour of base pigments. Paints can be mixed from different pigments to appear nearly identical and I could not unequivocally identify the pigment origin whether I had any business "playing" with colour naming systems or not! If it was that easy there would be no forensic paint analysts or equipment!

 

Nick

it's possible, but not that likely, in the case of WWI German aircraft. 

an example of exactly what you're talking about is Copperoyd. it ends up being a very saturated red that could pass for an oxide and doesn't look particularly coppery. that said, you can't make any pigment look like any other pigment. good luck making red oxide look like cadmium red.

 

also, from WWI onward, we know for the most part where the various players sourced their pigments. so to my eye pigment + formula is the best starting point. 

[Jeff.K]

3 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

You are conflating pigments and colours again, misunderstanding my point about pigment reds and appear to be attempting to prevail in this discussion by insult.

 

no i'm not. i'm saying colors made from an oxide pigment will have an identifiable oxide earthiness, however subtle, to them. 

 

where was the insult? sorry if you took it that way, wasn't how i intended it. 

[Nick Millman]

Just now, Jeff.K said:

it's possible, but not that likely, in the case of WWI German aircraft. 

an example of exactly what you're talking about is Copperoyd. it ends up being a very saturated red that could pass for an oxide and doesn't look particularly coppery. that said, you can't make any pigment look like any other pigment. good luck making red oxide look like cadmium red.

 

also, from WWI onward, we know for the most part where the various players sourced their pigments. so to my eye pigment + formula is the best starting point. 

I couldn't agree more but you were starting from speculation about the pigment + formula.  

 

Nick

[Jeff.K]

5 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

I couldn't agree more but you were starting from speculation about the pigment + formula.  

 

not sure what you mean by that part about starting from speculation about pigment + formula. perhaps you misconstrued what i said, or perhaps i said it poorly... 

 

in the case of PC10 there are a lot of known facts. these include the formula, the pigments and the sources. the variation of ochre from a specific site would fall within a predictable range, and not encompass exotic colors that *could* be made with iron oxide. the formula specifies a ratio. from there, it's a bit speculative, but if you can't make whatever (chocolate, green, green chocolate) you believe PC10 to be from the pigments by following the formula, it ain't PC10. 

some known facts about German red that are relevant:

synthetic madder lake was available, it was invented in Germany, and mass produced there. 

safe bet red oxide was available.

 

cadmium can make a 'bright red' but cadmium pigments, besides being quite toxic, are freakin' expensive. so unlikely. 

 

therefore assuming i don't go all in and dig for primary sources on the paints available, (i'm not building this kite right away) i'd start with one or both of the first two pigments and go from there. 

 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Jeff.K
added from PC10 onward

[Nick Millman]

16 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

no i'm not. i'm saying colors made from an oxide pigment will have an identifiable oxide earthiness, however subtle, to them. 

 

where was the insult? sorry if you took it that way, wasn't how i intended it. 

Really? RAF Sky was generally manufactured with yellow precipitated iron oxide. Some hobby paints match it almost exactly but do not contain iron oxide.

 

Chromium oxide (green) and chrome green (chrome yellow + prussian blue) can be mixed with other pigments to make greens which are indistinguishable to the eye. 

 

Nick  

[Jeff.K]

3 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

Really? RAF Sky was generally manufactured with yellow precipitated iron oxide. Some hobby paints match it almost exactly but do not contain iron oxide.

 

was yellow precipitated iron oxide the only pigment? 

 

if not then it's not an apples to apples comparison. 

[Nick Millman]

29 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

not sure what you mean by that part about starting from speculation about pigment + formula. perhaps you misconstrued what i said, or perhaps i said it poorly... 

 

in the case of PC10 there are a lot of known facts. these include the formula, the pigments and the sources. the variation of ochre from a specific site would fall within a predictable range, and not encompass exotic colors that *could* be made with iron oxide. the formula specifies a ratio. from there, it's a bit speculative, but if you can't make whatever (chocolate, green, green chocolate) you believe PC10 to be from the pigments by following the formula, it ain't PC10. 

some known facts about German red that are relevant:

synthetic madder lake was available, it was invented in Germany, and mass produced there. 

safe bet red oxide was available.

 

cadmium can make a 'bright red' but cadmium pigments, besides being quite toxic, are freakin' expensive. so unlikely. 

 

therefore assuming i don't go all in and dig for primary sources on the paints available, (i'm not building this kite right away) i'd start with one or both of the first two pigments and go from there. 

 

All reasonable enough but still speculative and you are "headlining" pigments. Common industrial red paints of the time included many different pigments. By way of just one example "Bright Red' was often made in dry powder form with 112lbs of bright red oxide to 28lbs of red chrome (lead chromate) and 112lbs of Barytes. The result is a bright slightly orange red.

 

Nick

[Nick Millman]

Just now, Jeff.K said:

was yellow precipitated iron oxide the only pigment? 

 

if not then it's not an apples to apples comparison. 

You don't know whether red oxide or "kaplack" was the only pigment used to make Richthofen's red. See "Bright Red" formula above. 

 

And to be pedantic your original statement was  "i'm saying colors made from an oxide pigment will have an identifiable oxide earthiness".

 

Nick

[Jeff.K]

8 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

Chromium oxide (green) and chrome green (chrome yellow + prussian blue) can be mixed with other pigments to make greens which are indistinguishable to the eye. 

 

if you KNOW you're trying to match chromium dioxide green, sure.  but here's the thing: with WWI kites, this one in particular, we're not that sure of what we're trying to match. 

 

1 minute ago, Nick Millman said:

By way of just one example "Bright Red' was often made in dry powder form with 112lbs of bright red oxide to 28lbs of red chrome and 112lbs of Barytes.

by whom? should this be a candidate for this kite? as i said, point if we knew the pigments (and their source) that were actually used, or at least what would have definitely been available... 

[Jeff.K]

1 minute ago, Nick Millman said:

You don't know whether red oxide or "kaplack" was the only pigment used to make Richthofen's red. See "Bright Red" formula above. 

 

didn't say i did. i SAID *if* we knew or could at least narrow it down... 

 

2 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

And to be pedantic your original statement was  "i'm saying colors made from an oxide pigment will have an identifiable oxide earthiness".

 

what was in RAF Sky besides yellow oxide? anything? if so, then i stand by that. if not, i'd have to see Sky up close. 

 

to clarify when i'm talking about colors made from certain pigments having an identifiable look, i mean BEFORE mixing with other pigments.