Yes THAT red triplane.

[FredG]

It is frequently described as Blood Red. so easy colour to match.  Just p r i c k your finger.

Edited September 10, 2017 by FredG
unnecessary censoring corrected

[Jeff.K]

have to agree with Beardie on the most likely pigment being iron oxide. the photos of the relics bear this out. that would qualify as "blood red" (considering that blood is red from oxygen meeting iron). that said there's a distinct possibility that the pigment was rose madder based or that the painters used more than one red (basically whatever they could find). 

the dope would yellow and craze (causing the appearance of fading) rather quickly i've been told. so it would cause an orange-ish brown-ish cast (or accentuate it; red oxide already has an element of brown to it). i would expect samples that look more brownish today to have looked more orange-ish back in the day. 

over at theaerodrome.com, there are several threads where they hotly debate what the actual color was, and they show photos of the fabric samples. the most interesting sample is from the bottom of the aircraft where it flaked off to reveal the blue underneath. there are some patches where the dope too has flaked off, leaving the blue paint. where there's dope it's turquoise and where there's no dope it's sky blue. 

 

i don't know that there is any certainty that 425/17 was field painted but his other aircraft were. the consensus seems to be that it, too was. that is based on the fact that there are no records of it being factory painted red, and there should have been if it was. there is probably even some debate as to whether the photos of 425/17 are actually 425/17, and not some other of his red tripes, but these photos all look like the kite had a smooth, professional paint job. no sloppy brush marks etc. Compare to photos of 152/17 or any red Albatros he flew, where overpainted markings are clearly visible. so to my eye even if it was most likely field painted, this kite got special attention and was probably spray painted. 

 

in my experience red oxide as a pigment is very strong and has good hiding power, but that would depend a lot on the medium. the paint underneath in many samples of Richtofen's kites seems to affect the visible color quite a bit.  425/17 looks very nicely finished in comparison. 

my approach to this dilemma, when i do 425/17, will most likely be to use this: http://mrpaint.sk/farby/WWI?product_id=331

 

and then, after adding the markings, spray the whole thing with a faint hazy yellow ochre both to simulate the dope and tone down the color to simulate atmospheric perspective (i like to scale down the viewing distance too, and colors grey out and get less contrasty with distance).

[Twobad]

The finish on Richthofen's DR.1 was surprisingly good.

 

 

The distinctive paint flaking around the cockpit indicates this was 425/17.

 

Note also that the aircraft weight table, usually shown on the port side just below the cockpit, is definitely absent on this aircraft. Though the Revell box art on this kit shows it there.

 

There are also conflicting views on whether the actual aircraft number "Fok. DR1 425/17" was painted on this aircraft. Paul Leaman in his "Fokker Dr.1 Triplane - A World War One Legend"* shows it as not being there, while A E Ferko in his book "Richthofen" has it there but showing through the red top coat having been over painted, so somewhat indistinct. It certainly wasn't clearly painted on in the manner adopted in most decals provided for this aircraft.

 

* The Paul Leaman book is 'the bible' on the Dr.1 but out of print now and can be pricey to get hold of. It is by far the best reference I've come across for this aircraft though.

[stevej60]

Some great info coming to light folk's,It's hard to get a decent picture to show the darker shade of red I've mixed and differing shades

on various surfaces here's a none enhanced photo without light,interesting that the weight table may not be on this aircraft as the

decal is large and the other clear backed ones were a nightmare,the let down for me will be the prop I just can't master natural wood!

I'm building Revell's ancient 1/28 kit.

 

[Beardie]

Looks very nice Steve

[Jeff.K]

Looking good, Steve. keep it glossy, photos suggest that's the way forward. if the color's accurate yours has a nice hint of orange, suggesting the dope. 

[nuuumannn]

A bit late on the scene for this thread, but if I may, there is a reproduction Dr I flying with a worthy interpretation of 425/17's colour scheme. I have some images here, which might be of some assistance.

 

http://warbirdswalkaround.wixsite.com/warbirds/fokker-dr-i-walkaround

 

Note the iron cross in the frame from the original. The crash diorama was done by the Vintage Aviator lot.

 

This page has a few images of the same aeroplane in different lighting.

 

http://warbirdswalkaround.wixsite.com/warbirds/dr-i-gallery

[Gordon Branch]

I only just noticed this topic a have read it with interest.  What surprises me is that with a couple of great pictures of relics within the Australian War Memorial's collection there still seems to be debate over the actual colour.

 

Okay, my turn to chime in.

 

On page 1 of this discussion you'll see a post from a member from Canberra talking about a scrapbook which had belonged to a 3 Squadron AFC pilot named Pickering.  I too am a Canberran member and I will claim that it was my friends and myself who discovered the piece of fabric from MvR's triplane in the book.

 

On the Facebook page referenced here is a photograph we took at the time.

 

 

[Jeff.K]

if the color in the photo is true it looks like it has some iron oxide in it. 

[Beardie]

I would still go with a 'Venetian Red' Iron oxide pigment from Turkey with dulling over time due to the yellowing of the dope.

[Jeff.K]

Rose Madder was in common use, too, but doesn't have that oxide cast. 

 

on the other hand: 

 

note the transparency. unusual for a red oxide, typical of rose madder based reds. Sergey Mertens of Drooling Bulldog notes in describing his Kraplak paint that it was widely produced, and he thinks it was the pigment in the varnish for both Richtofen and Udet: http://www.droolingbulldog.com/products/kraplak/

 

red oxide covers really well and is a strong pigment, but if you thin it enough you can make a glaze. 

all of that said, i lean toward the 'field painted theory' which would have meant whatever red paint they could forage. one reason for this, no one has turned up any factory documentation of a highly unusual finish, but the other reason is that some samples look distinctly like rose madder and some distinctly iron oxide, while others have hints of both. this would be entirely consistent with field painting IMO. 

 

that said, it's entirely possible that variations among samples are entirely due to the lighting in which they've been photographed. 

there's a lot we don't know, but careful eyeballing of the photos of surviving fabric samples and what we know of what's available to my eye, narrows it down to one, the other or both of madder lake and red oxide. 

 

PS Beardie the sample above is evidence that at least the Germans didn't use a bright "Persil" titanium white, and suggests (to me anyway) 

 

[Twobad]

5 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

...all of that said, i lean toward the 'field painted theory' which would have meant whatever red paint they could forage.

The main argument against the field painted theory is that there is no olive drab streaking underneath the red. Just the initial light blue dope. The olive drab was a standard factory finish so even assuming it was delivered in light blue there's no paperwork to support that deviation either. The finish is of an unusually high standard for field application too.

[Jeff.K]

true. no evidence at all of streaking that i know of, which was the standard factory finish. this includes areas where the paint's chipped off, as i understand it (it certainly does on the undersurfaces where the blue dope was applied; correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding is that upper surfaces have plain clear dope underneath the paint with no streaking). 

 

the sample i included above of the red's transparency sure doesn't look like an 'unusually high standard,' i wouldn't let those clowns paint my living room. however, it's pretty well known that this aircraft had the crosses repainted to balkenkreuz in the field, this sloppiness might have *only* been evident in the areas that were repainted. 

 

the excellence of the finish, however, can only be considered 'probable' as it may only be the case that we can't see the same sloppiness in the existing photos but would if we were close enough. 
 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Jeff.K

[Twobad]

The modifications from Iron Crosses to the 4:1 ratio Balken Cruze and then the final 3:1 ratio were carried out in the field,  and crudely too.

 

 

I've just had a quick dip into Paul Leaman's book  (Fokker Dr.1 Triplane - A WW1 Legend) and he suggests that the aircraft may have been spray painted at the Fokker factory at Scherwin or alternatively 'AFP 2' , which I assume to be a forward maintenance base.

 

I posted a close-up of 425/17 earlier and you can see the standard of finish on that. There are no hints of brush marks at all. Likewise MvR's earlier 477/17 was also finished very well.

 

Dr.I 425/17

 

Dr.I 477/17

 

 

For what it is worth I painted my own Dr.I in Nissan's Flame Red AJ4 with a red undercoat. I was aiming at an 'engineering example' standard though rather than utter accuracy. Hence, I went with a colour that felt right and eschewed any weathering or attempt to replicate the insignia field mods.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Twobad
Add pic of modified Insignia and own model.

[Twobad]

27 minutes ago, Jeff.K said:

correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding is that upper surfaces have plain clear dope underneath the paint with no streaking). 

That's my understanding too.

[Shane]

On 9/10/2017 at 12:56 AM, Beardie said:

An interesting thought that hadn't occurred to me until a minute ago in another thread (about PC10) one of our members brought up the rapid yellowing of dope. If this happened on MvR's machine it would lead to a darkening and 'browning' of the initial colour. Bright, slightly rusty red is looking more probable as the colour to me.

The dope is *under* the red paint, not over it. And indeed, under the non shrinking streaking dope too.

 

Quote

It is also of note that while you will see many depictions of the machine with Eisernes Kreuzen or Balken Kreuzen the recovered pieces show that the machine actually bore crosses that had been converted from Eisernes Kreuzen to Balken Kreuzen

 

All Fokker Dr.1 were manufactured and finished with Eiserne Kreuze and the crosses were converted - to a wide variety of styles due to poor communication f the requirement - at a later date. IIRC all photos of 425/17 show the converted crosses, which is one of the pieces of "evidence" quoted to support discussion that this aircraft was a factory finished aircraft repainted in red at Fokker before delivery, rather than in the field, and may have had different and better pigments used

 

Shane

 

 

[Pauls9cb]

I recently discovered while badgering the IWM on another Triplane relic that they have a sample of  the red fabric from MvR's 425/17 in some perspex covering. I'm unsure which branch (Duxford/London) actually holds this and I guess the deterioration of the fabric/colour over time may not clarify all the questions posed in this thread. It's nevertheless been an illuminating read. If nothing else for me, it explains why the streaking camo that almost all Tripes had in the field was different from the finish on the first 3 pre-production machines (101/102/103/17) which were finished all over with light blue pigmented dope after the shrinking dope finish and before the olve green streaks were applied. Hence the later machines had the clear doped undersurface showing thought the olive green streaks, giving the later machines a browner appearance, accentauted by any covering of linseed oil/ffurther dope, compared to the "silver-blue" noted by some of the 56 Squadron pilots involved in Voss' final combat on 23/9/17. I'm sure most of you were aware of this, but I found this gave me a greater understanding.

Paul

[Jeff.K]

2 minutes ago, Shane said:

The dope is *under* the red paint, not over it. And indeed, under the non shrinking streaking dope too.

 

in general, my understanding is aircraft were typically varnished over the paint, and the crazing of the varnish is what led to the fast fading so often seen on WWI kites. no idea whether that applies here, although there sure looks like a lot of crazing in the closeup of the cockpit in your post above. 

 

4 minutes ago, Shane said:

may have had different and better pigments used

i don't think there's any reason at all to believe that pigments would have been 'different and better,' just applied better. 

 

i'd bet a chemical analysis would show rose madder, red oxide, or both present. and no other red pigments. 

 

has a chemical analysis been done? if we knew what pigments are and aren't present that would go a long way, but analysis on areas that weren't obvious field mods would be the interesting one (in other words, anything away from the crosses). 

 

i'm wondering if, say, someone asked the line supervisor to paint this one differently rather than going through management, that would account for the lack of documentation for it being a factory finish? 

 

[Shane]

On 9/10/2017 at 8:10 PM, Twobad said:

 

 

* The Paul Leaman book is 'the bible' on the Dr.1 but out of print now and can be pricey to get hold of. It is by far the best reference I've come across for this aircraft though.

 

Aside from several pages of corrections and amendments that need to be made, including incorrect captions, misidentified aircraft and people, repeated photos with different captions on different pages, the long discredited fantasy that the aircraft was designed by Platz, misunderstanding of the structure of the plane and where the controls are located and so on.

Taken with a grain of salt, an okay book, but not worth paying over the odds to collect. And not the bible

 

Shane

[Jeff.K]

26 minutes ago, Shane said:

Taken with a grain of salt, an okay book, but not worth paying over the odds to collect. And not the bible

Shane, is there a bible on the subject? 

 

I'm favorably impressed with the Ferko book but I've got nothing else to compare it to. 

 

This might be a good place to list 'essential' Fokker Triplane references.

What about Imrie? how's that book rate? What else is good and/or interesting? 

[Nick Millman]

There is a lot of conflation in this thread between colour names (used for proprietary paints - oils, watercolours, etc.) and pigments. Very often the colour names, for example vermilion, cover a number of different pigments, which in turn can vary in hue according to manufacturing process and origin. Venetian Red has been used for both synthetic and natural iron oxide reds, Pigment Reds 101 and 102, but there are many other names and differing hues for those with a range from dark brown to almost orange. Venetian Scarlet is Natural Red 3, Kermes (Kermesic acid) whilst Venetian Lake is Natural Red 4, Cochineal. The only way to be sure about the pigment used is to scientifically analyse the paint and even that is not always 100% successful.

 

In Methuen Venetian Red is held to be 8D8, a distinctly brownish looking, rust red.

 

The colour now seen on fabric samples might not be true to the original and fading is just one of many possible changes dependent on pigment and binder composition, environment and other factors. FWIW there was an article on Richthofen's Triplane colour in Windsock magazine which I cited here in 2010:-

 

"Windsock Vol.4 No.1 - an article on the hue of the red dope drawn from Wally Batter's examination of original fabric held by the Canadian Military Institute, and of colours reported in Australia and from fabric owned by Dan San Abbott. The "average" red was identified as Methuen 9(E-F)8 and where it was in pristine condition 9(C-D)8, it was identified as a "Lake Red" aka "Crimson Lake" or "Carmine Red", the notoriously fugitive pigment made from the secretion of Coccus lacca. Only quite recently have these pigments been synthesised and made stable. Variations were reported as 9F8 and 9D7 with DSA's as 10F7. Although these are different values (and useless if you don't have the Methuen guide  ) they are of of similar hue, and probably much darkened with age. The article suggested Humbrol railway colour HR137 (said to be equivalent to Humbrol 132 Satin Red) toned down slightly as being a "close approximation". Couldn't find any close FS to the paint chip in the article but it is lighter than the Methuen values cited which are surprisingly dark. Richthofen was commissioned in Uhlan Regt Nr.1 Kaiser Alexander III von Russland, the uniform facings of which were, unsurprisingly, carmine red. RGB value for the "standard" pigment colour is around 150 0 24. In the 1930's Berryloid marketed a pigmented dope called "Fokker Red" which was almost identical to this deep red.
Solid colour? Unlikely. They were pigmented dopes rather than paint per se and because of their transparency and brush application the appearance would be variegated and affected by the underlying dopes and materials."

 

Not sure I'd stand by that comment on Coccus lacca and the proprietary red names now but Carmine Red is one name for Cochineal NR4. 

 

Nick

 

[Beardie]

I think we have reached the common point which occurs with almost all WWI colour schemes It could be a number of pigments and originally have been any one of many shades of red and, even with analysis of the remaining fragments, we might not reach a definite answer. The only thing we can rule out are pigments which were invented after WWI and all the other colours that aren't red

 

I guess the Baron will just have to have whatever colour of aircraft we see him flying in our minds' eye.

[Nick Millman]

I think that it would be a reasonable conclusion that the triplane was painted to imitate the red facing colours on Richthofen's Uhlan uniform, for which Humbrol 132 is not a bad match, give or take.

 

Nick

 

 

[Smithy]

Now how about that colour on the cowling of Voss's F.1....  

[Beardie]

Nick do we have accurate period examples of the Facings on Richthofens' uniform and how close a match would the Baron have found acceptable

 

I think accuracy will never be 100 percent with any WWI scheme and, when all is said and done it doesn't really matter that much as long as it is close enough to give us an idea of the colour scheme of individual fliers.