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stevej60

Yes THAT red triplane.

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Hi folk's,Wolwe's recent superb posting got me to hankering  to add the  famous red triplane in a larger scale to the collection at some pointEduard's

1/48 offering being the kit of choice as I previously built Kempf's machine in one of their boxing's

DSCN1077_zpsnfevgcw8.jpg

 

Anyway My LMS is clearing out Revell kits at discounted prices and out I came with the ancient 1/28 scale kit! 1957 is stamped on the molding but for a tenner

for a fun build who cares,what I wanted feedback on was what finish in reality did this aircraft have? I know it was red so as on the 1/72 scale kit I did the metal

cowl can be shaded differently but would there have been different shades on other surfaces with differing depths as I want to build it wart's and all without

adding this and that AM (if indeed there is any) Agood paint job might make a difference,so tips and techniques from you WWI modeller's please.

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Now that is a hard one. There has been much debate on just what shade of red it was and variations in the paint colour throughout the machine due to different materials etc. would very much depend on how thickly the paint was applied.

 

I think the colour and general look of this full size replica would probably be as good as any other:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2829796/The-ultimate-model-plane-Man-spends-50-000-building-exact-working-replica-Red-Baron-s-Fokker-triplane-home.html

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Ive always thought it was a Darker red shade ive seen Wolwe's build its great. I think id go a couple shades darker myself. But the experten here in the WW1 section know better than i. Im not sure how colors would be affected by dope and fabric absorption. I built the 1/28 camel as a kid with my Big brother and we even rigged it in a rudimentary fashion. Oh memories. 

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34 minutes ago, Beardie said:

Now that is a hard one. There has been much debate on just what shade of red it was and variations in the paint colour throughout the machine due to different materials etc. would very much depend on how thickly the paint was applied.

 

I think the colour and general look of this full size replica would probably be as good as any other:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2829796/The-ultimate-model-plane-Man-spends-50-000-building-exact-working-replica-Red-Baron-s-Fokker-triplane-home.html

Thank's Beardie I saw that replica and was interested in the finish probably a modern fabric and thinking the "weathered" look all part of the manufacturing

process I've started a WIP so I'll see what pan's out!

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12 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ive always thought it was a Darker red shade ive seen Wolwe's build its great. I think id go a couple shades darker myself. But the experten here in the WW1 section know better than i. Im not sure how colors would be affected by dope and fabric absorption. I built the 1/28 camel as a kid with my Big brother and we even rigged it in a rudimentary fashion. Oh memories. 

My thought's exaxtly I want to make it a bit different from monotone red,I,ve never done any of the three 1/28 oldies  so this one will be

interesting it's only taken forty plus year's!

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Discussion on another forum, and one type of descriptive red mentioned is vermilion, and a paint formula suggested was Testors Insignia Red ( 8 parts) with Testors Brown #1166 ( 2 parts).

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/141896.aspx

 

Of course, try googling that colour and you arrive at quite the variety, but here is the Methuan colour suggested at Aerodrome - 10F8

 

10A.jpg

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

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Cheer's Jack,quite a choice so unless one of his ground crew is found alive and well in a Bavarian rest home no one can tell me it's wrong!

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the 1/28 scale triplane kit features two different ailerons, an early one and a late one that was fitted to 144/17 , a captured machine.   It also reverses the cockpit side detail, left for right.

 

Your choice whether to attack those two items.

 

Tony

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Posted (edited)

The Australian War Memorial website has a couple of pictures of components taken from Richthofen's Fokker after it was shot down.

 

4190144.JPG

 

3834519.JPG

 

 

 

Edited by Twobad
Pics referenced directly rather than via links.

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35 minutes ago, Tony Edmundson said:

the 1/28 scale triplane kit features two different ailerons, an early one and a late one that was fitted to 144/17 , a captured machine.   It also reverses the cockpit side detail, left for right.

 

Your choice whether to attack those two items.

 

Tony

Thank's TonyI'll take a look into that.

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I would guess that Richthofen would have wanted the brightest available colour for his aircraft, after all he wanted to intimidate the opposition even before he came close and display a fearlessness to encourage his comrades.

 

Looking at the relics online I would say that Venetian red is probably the pigment that was used. vermillion would have been far too expensive as it is made from Mercury Oxide(cinnabar), Cadmium Red would also have cost a fortune and the other forms of red paint that would have been available at that time were more towards the purplish or orangey. Venetian red was bright, lightfast and cheap as the main source of the neccessary red iron oxide pigment was in Turkey where Germany would have had no problem procuring it. Indian red is also very lightfast and opaque giving great covering power and durability.

 

Basically a bright rusty red which would actually fit with the an insignia red dulled down with a little brown at the same time. There were actually very few dark reds around at the time of the great war that didn't verge into purple or brown unless they were mixed from other more expensive pigments.

 

The images in the above post look very dull on my screen but, looking at other photographs of the same items and the cross area from his fuselage in other pictures available on the net, shows that the items still retain quite a bright (pillar box) red colouring.

 

I think too bright would be wrong as the pigments just weren't available but too dark would be wrong also as I am guessing it would defeat the purpose that Von Richthofen wanted it for.

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I don't suppose you can get much better than the photo in this link of a piece of the real machine https://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-1347-fabric-section-of-von-richthofens-fokker-tri-plane-dr-i-425-17-containing-portion-of-painted-cross-53502/

It also shows the overpainting of the Eisernen Kreuz to create a Balkenkreuz and brushmarks from painting.

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It is also of note that while you will see many depictions of the machine with Eisernes Kreuzen or Balken Kreuzen the recovered pieces show that the machine actually bore crosses that had been converted from Eisernes Kreuzen to Balken Kreuzen which has resulted in odd 'T' shaped ends to the crosses on the fuselage sides (at Omaka with the wing crosses (Canada and auction relic linked above)) having been changed properly to Balken Kreuz. The white backing to the crosses on the wings was also overpainted but clearly visible and the crosses extended beyond the width of the original Eisernes Kreuz. Overall the surviving pieces look like the finish on the machine was far from 'immaculate' at the time of his death with plenty of room for challenging distressing to be done

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In honor of Von R.'s 125th birthday--and the kit's 58th(?)--there's yet another reissue:

https://www.revell.de/en/products/model-building/gift-sets/id/05778.html

but at least there's a brand new instruction sheet for it.

https://www.revell.de/fileadmin/import/images/bau/05778_%23BAU_FOKKER_DR_1.PDF

incidentally, Von R's choice of red, according to Ray Rimell, may have been the same reason for many other pilots' color choices; red was the facing color of his old regiment.

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I'm in Canberra Steve, the Australian War Memorial is very close by my home.

 

There's a photo book of a 3 Sqn AFC pilot; George Pickering. Above a photo of him as  a pall bearer at MvR's funeral is a piece of the actual fabric, now protected by clear plastic film. It matches fabric they have in storage from the aircraft 425/17.

 

I should be able to access the photo album in the reading room, take some pictures of the fabric for you. I don't know if they'll help due to digital cameras sensitivity, screens etc. Would it be better to take a photo and have it printed by a photo lab?

 

I also have 35mm film stock and cameras if that would give a better result? I could post it to you; it would get to you within a week or so.

 

As a thought, I may be able to purchase a photo of the fabric from them.

 

It's described as a 'blood red', which would concur with what I perceive as the colour of  the components in @Twobad's post and the colour in @JackG's post.

 

I hope to build a model of it too, so the journey would serve a few purposes.

 

I haven't been up and about for a while, but the old Volvo passed its roadworthy test (like an MOT test; do they still call them that?) and we registered it too (like road tax), last Friday. Went for my first drive in months two days ago :). I could go at the weekend, I have to go out to a ANU university open day anyway :thumbsup2: .

 

HTH :bye: 

Best regards

TonyT

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Hi Tony, that sounds like a great idea.   I think the best way a photo might help with determining the shade of red  is to photograph it with something we might all be familiar with and have at home to compare with once it is seen on the comp screen.  Maybe bring along a red section of an Airfix box and include it in the photo - or something along those lines?

 

regards,

Jack

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10 hours ago, Beardie said:

It is also of note that while you will see many depictions of the machine with Eisernes Kreuzen or Balken Kreuzen the recovered pieces show that the machine actually bore crosses that had been converted from Eisernes Kreuzen to Balken Kreuzen which has resulted in odd 'T' shaped ends to the crosses on the fuselage sides (at Omaka with the wing crosses (Canada and auction relic linked above)) having been changed properly to Balken Kreuz. The white backing to the crosses on the wings was also overpainted but clearly visible and the crosses extended beyond the width of the original Eisernes Kreuz. Overall the surviving pieces look like the finish on the machine was far from 'immaculate' at the time of his death with plenty of room for challenging distressing to be done

Thank's Beardie,the kit decals are printed with the original crosses underneath to show the changes so nice one Revell!

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Is that a 'newish' boxing you have Steve? I built this kit a few years ago and the decals didn't have that feature.

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10 hours ago, Beardie said:

Is that a 'newish' boxing you have Steve? I built this kit a few years ago and the decals didn't have that feature.

Yes it's new just arrived instore this week,I've started a WIP in aircraft hoping for a quick build to try out some paint ideas.

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There's one other point that needs to be remembered....red fades VERY quickly! Just look at any old vehicle, painting, or even old models with red decals. The shade changes extremely quickly when exposed to sunlight.

 

Ian

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Ah, while that is true for some reds I don't believe it would have been the case for the Barons' machine. As I said earlier on, the most probable pigment is a fairly pure hydrated iron oxide (basically rust) which is very lightfast compared to your average bright red as used on cars where they will have used a red manmade pigment like a 'lake'. In the past lake pigments were very fugitive (prone to fade) but modern pigments have been developed that are much more lightfast. If you look at the preserved pieces of Manfred von Richthofens' plane there is little evidence of fading, if anything I would suspect looking at the images that they have darkened with age.

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On 21/08/2017 at 3:10 PM, JackG said:

Hi Tony, that sounds like a great idea.   I think the best way a photo might help with determining the shade of red  is to photograph it with something we might all be familiar with and have at home to compare with once it is seen on the comp screen.  Maybe bring along a red section of an Airfix box and include it in the photo - or something along those lines?

 

regards,

Jack

 

Thanks Jack :)

The red of an Airfix box is a great idea. 

 

I have an app called 'imodelkit' on iOS. It's useful for taking a photograph of a colour, then requesting how that colour can be best approximated by most model paint manufacturer's products.

 

On the paid version it will suggest how to mix a colour from paints that  one has in the 'inventory'.

 

I know lots of people won't have iOS, or want to use the app, but  I'll try to get something useful to others by using its capabilities.

 

I realise it's what the device sees, not what we see. That lighting conditions, all kinds of things affect our perception and memory of colour. It veers quickly into philosophical science, but we just want help with painting our Fokkers!

 

I'll figure it out. Give e.g. best colour matches and mixes.

 

I went backwards mobility/health wise but as soon as I'm comfortably vertical enough, I'll go to the AWM.

 

I'll thoroughly enjoy doing it to be honest; I love going to the AWM.

 

I'll post my results here on this thread. If anyone has any other ideas for taking a photo or requests for other photos from AWM, please feel free to let me know. If it's not OT, just send a PM.

 

Best regards

TonyT

 

PS: I toyed with the idea of going with one of these:

 

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/products.asp?cat=60

 

At GBP £179.99 I'll stick to an Airfix box and app :lol:!!

 

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An interesting thought that hadn't occurred to me until a minute ago in another thread (about PC10) one of our members brought up the rapid yellowing of dope. If this happened on MvR's machine it would lead to a darkening and 'browning' of the initial colour. Bright, slightly rusty red is looking more probable as the colour to me.

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He had at least 3 triplanes. As a senior officer and very public ace his aeroplanes were mantained in very top order. Its on record that whilst using one DR1 the others were kept in perfect order and they were all repainted frequently.

Even lesser pilots like Kempf had their DR1s repainted frequently; there are numerous photos of Kempf's DR1 painted differently - its the same one going by the code number on the side.

Soldiers who took samples of R's DR1 fabric all said it was a bright red

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