Falkland skyhawk underside colour

[PhantomBigStu]

got into an endless mess over this trying to find a suitable paint to use, so many places sending me to one colour only to find colour photos that look nothing like said recommendation. All very confused. Lots of places point towards towards a pale shade of blue like a humbrol 65 or paler, yet seen photos which are clearly a very deep blue nothing like that.  In no rush as its a future build.

[Fernando]

Hi, PhantomBigStu,

 

Guess you are referring to the Dark Earth/Dark Green A-4Ps (-4Bs).

 

Go for the light blue, with a happy heart.

 

Possibly you have seen the Turquoise shade sometimes present in drop tanks? More often in A-4Cs.

 

Fernando

 

[PhantomBigStu]

On 20/08/2017 at 8:28 PM, Fernando said:

Hi, PhantomBigStu,

 

Guess you are referring to the Dark Earth/Dark Green A-4Ps (-4Bs).

 

Go for the light blue, with a happy heart.

 

Possibly you have seen the Turquoise shade sometimes present in drop tanks? More often in A-4Cs.

 

Fernando

 

 

Indeed I am, so I'm fine despite photos and profile artwork fine with a pale blue, thanks 

[usetherudders]

I've seen RLM65/78 mentioned before , would that work?

[Uncle Uncool]

Stu,

I'd go from light grey mixed with that shade of Humbrol 65 for the underside. Remember that the hue has got to be much lighter than the colour in which the undercarriage was painted.

Here's a good comparison between both colours on a Scooter which survived the war.

 

http://imgur.com/a/2BCxY

 

Hope it helps, my mate.

Cheers,

 

Unc

Edited August 29, 2017 by Uncle Uncool
Remembered images from Airliners.net not allowed, sorry

[FAAMAN]

Without meaning to be rude but Hu65 is completely wrong for a Falklands A-4P.

 

Quote from my ATF Airfix A-4 thread,

"NOTE, I personally do not like Hu65 for the early FAA camouflage as it’s too dark and blue, it does not properly represent the landing gear bays, oleos or undersides colour, it is nowhere light enough being close to FS.36622 Camouflage Grey in appearance (it’s actually officially quoted as FS.35550 and Polyscale #505248 Sky Blue RAAF K3/195 was exactly correct. If you use FS.35622 it will look just right, more on this colour next)."

These are the producers of FS35622,

FS.35622 no official FS595 name; *Testors #1722 Duck Egg Blue, *Humbrol #Hu122 Israeli Lt Blue, *LifeColor #UA139 Blue Grey, *Gunze Aqueous #314 Blue, *Mr Color #314 Blue FS.35622, *Heller #9064 Light Airforce Blue.

 

The underside colour changed to a more Hu65 like blue just after the Falklands conflict.

 

When the ATF comes back from wherever it's gone, I'll provide a link to my accurisation thread for the Airfix A-4B. It has full colour scheme info for Argentine A-4P's up to the end of the Falklands conflict.

Regards

FAAMAN

[FAAMAN]

As promised, ATF is back so here's the link,    http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47356

you'll find that USN A-4B's are first then FAA (Argentine Air Force) A-4P's.

Just remember that if you are doing an Airfix "B" it needs a lot of work to produce an accurate model.

Hope this helps,

Regards

FAA

Edited September 5, 2017 by FAAMAN
missing link

[Fernando]

23 hours ago, FAAMAN said:

it is nowhere light enough being close to FS.36622 Camouflage Grey in appearance (it’s actually officially quoted as FS.35550 and Polyscale #505248 Sky Blue RAAF K3/195 was exactly correct. If you use FS.35622 it will look just right, more on this colour next)."

These are the producers of FS35622,...

Hi FAAMAN,

 

You have made a typo, augmented by the wrong color description. It should be 35622, not 36622 Camouflage Grey, which is the colour in the undersurface of USAF SEA camo.

 

Fernando

[PhantomBigStu]

Thank you @FAAMAN I shall be ordering myself some lifecolour bluegrey for when this build happens

[Seahawk]

4 hours ago, FAAMAN said:

As promised, ATF is back so here's the link,    http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47356

you'll find that USN A-4B's are first then FAA (Argentine Air Force) A-4P's.

Just remember that if you are doing an Airfix "B" it needs a lot of work to produce an accurate model.

Hope this helps,

Regards

FAA

What a totally awesome reference: a true labour of love.  Can see I shall have to spend more time on ATF if there's more stuff of this quality on it. 

[FAAMAN]

Fernando there was no typo, the colour of the A-4P's undersides is close to FS36622 Camouflage Grey, only the A-4 colour is bluer hence FS35622, this colour is very close in hue to the actual FS35550 used and in scale the saturation of FS35622 is just right to represent the FS35550 used.

 

Thanks for that Seahawk, I'm still gathering info to finish the thread, it's a bit of a challenge with all the complete rubbish that's been published about A-4's and especially Argentine A-4's.

 

Is there a general thread here on BM.c where this link would be more appropriate?

 

Regards all,

FAA

[Giorgio N]

I second Seahawks's comment, really a very interesting and useful post, thanks for sharing !

[Uncle Uncool]

I think caution must be taken when sticking to an exact F.S. colour number regarding the Argentinean Scooters while in the South Atlantic conflict, if you recall those different hues worn on the camouflage of some A-4Cs which shared the very same squadrons. Paint batches varied, hence, colours did too.

As I said early, the underside is not blue but grey with a very little blueish hue in it.

The picture I posted above are the closest colours used on the underside and landing gear by that era. 

[FAAMAN]

Unfortunately Uncool you are not correct. I've been researching this topic for a long, long while and although I don't have all the answers on this point I'm afraid you've been misled by your reference material.

The photo you've provided is a preserved example that was repainted to 'represent' it during the Falklands without painting out the post Falklands 1982 underside/wheel well colour. The people who painted it also got it wrong, the funny part being that C-222 participated in the Falklands conflict in an all grey undercoat scheme (called "El Tordillo" by the FAA crews), not the Green/brown/lt.blue of other A-4Ps. If you follow the link to my reference thread on the ATF (see above) you'll see why. Also different film emulsions produce different hues as well, and some of the ref photos I've had to use in my thread are "off" as I could not gain permission to use "better" photos I have.

This is a photo of "El Tordillo" (The Dapple Grey) C-222 with battle damage from it's 21st of May attack on HMS Argonaut.

38. A-4P C-222 El Tordillo 21May battle damage HMS Argonaut by Neil, on Flickr

You've been caught out "using a Museum airframe as reference". Don't use preserved examples of anything for colour refs as even museums get it wrong, often.

Ex-FAA (Argentine Air Force) maintainers made it quite clear what colours were used and how they were mixed, also Spanish language magazines spelt out very clearly what colours were.

I started researching the subject over a year before I started posting anything on the ATF, double and triple checking against every reference I could find, anything I could not verify was not used.

[PhantomBigStu]

Sterling work once again @FAAMAN, followed your recommendation and ordered a pot of gunze 36622 as well as the skyhawk kit ready to go. 

[Uncle Uncool]

9 hours ago, FAAMAN said:

Unfortunately Uncool you are not correct. 

Just glad that I'm not - as this is not some kind of faultlessness death match for me, don't get me wrong. Just telling you that C-222 was painted to the standard A-4P colours again shortly after the war, and those colours were a tad different that the ones used during the conflict.

So, your proposed colours for the underside would be FS36622 and FS35622 for the undercarriage legs?

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Colourcoats ACRN36 US Equivalent Sky is FS35622 derived. A tweak duller, but if happy to use FS numbers for Argentine aircraft you'll probably struggle to tell the difference in this context.

[Uncle Uncool]

6 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Colourcoats ACRN36 US Equivalent Sky is FS35622 derived. A tweak duller, but if happy to use FS numbers for Argentine aircraft you'll probably struggle to tell the difference in this context.

Well, there's the rub, exactly, Jamie. I've read about these same endless arguments over colours, shades, hues and whatnot regarding the camo on the A-4Ps and A-4Cs which took part in the South Atlantic conflict of 1982 on many, many modelling forums, that I'm certain not even the fighter jocks doing the flying would have agreed on something.

I'm relative to one of the surviving pilots flying these aircraft during the war (Lt. Cmdr. Marco Benítez), and when enquiring him about, he just introduced me to some of the fellas who used to maintain the Scooters in Río Gallegos during the war.

Had I asked any of those blokes whether FS35622 is an exact colour match for the undercarriage legs on those birds or not, I'm quite sure they would have told me yeah, maybe, perhaps; we don't know...

Even when they've showed me very sharp pictures taken on the theatre, go figure if the colours on the shots could be trusted as they were; I mean, there's a lot o factors to deceive perception on a printed picture. So how can you be sure?

Only thing I'd be 100% possitive about, if any of us had had the immense bliss to have been able to take a FS paint chip to place it right beside the undercarriage legs (or the underside), of a Scooter during the war in order to be absolutely sure which is the exact colour to represent an aircraft during that same time period, then I could trust that colour a safe bet.

Wish I had, but I didn't; hence, I'm not quite sure if FS36622 is the right hue for the underside; perhaps it is, perhaps it's close enough; perhaps it is not, which is my point here. 

Mixing colours is a much safer bet to me than it is to affirm an specific FS colour getting even close to being it.  

[FAAMAN]

Wow Uncool that's wonderful to be related to one of those very brave fliers, hats off to you and I hope the gentleman is well. He must have some hair raising stories from the conflict.

Didn't mean to come on so strong about the 'correctness' of colours that "should" be used. Guess I fell into "THE TRAP" of my own correctness. Been researching this subject far too long with very little real info to be had for post war schemes, getting a bit frustrating, as there is masses of incorrect info out there with the occasional gem to be found. My head hurts from all the translating I've been doing, much of it to no end at all.

Absolutely correct on C-222 when it finally got it's camo colours as they seemed 'deeper' in colour than the pre-war pics show and then when the 30mm cannon mod was done the colour changed to the mid 80's grey-green/chocolate camo with grey(?) undersides. (Still trying to sort this point out as info on the Post war schemes is a bit "sparse".

I 'spose what is really hard to grasp is the vast number of hues that A-4Ps wore of the same basic camo, not difficult to understand really as every batch was 'hand mixed', something I've read over and over again.

Just quickly, Polyscale #505248 Sky Blue RAAF K3/195 is the accepted "exact" match for the underside/landing gear colour up to the Falklands conflict. It's FS35622 that is the closest match for the undersides and landing gear (or your accepted version of it, FS36622 is too grey and just wrong) for A-4Ps up to and during the Falklands that is readily available (referencing your particular airframe helps). The darker more Hu65 like colour started being applied to A-4P landing gear during the conflict as I have photos of one A-4P with the 'new' colour and right beside it an A-4P with the original colour.

When repaints occurred post Falklands the new darker blue was used for the whole undercarriage (bays, oleos, wheels, door insides) only with what seemed to be a grey for the underside (but I cannot find any reference to this colour). I've a photo of a recently painted (at the time) preserved C-232 with weapons arrayed around it about to be covered in a permanent display with the undersides and landing gear painted in the darker more turquoise colour, just a bit more confusion until you realise when it was painted.

Now I must agree with you on the maintainer's opinions of the colour hues as they really did come under abuse and being an Ex-A-4 maintainer myself I'd be hard pressed to answer what was the exact FS colour applied to camouflaged RAN A-4Gs was (it was a paint by Dow Corning). I do have colour chips of these

It's actually up to the individual modeller what they use for ANY finish, my intent was to provide a reference for modellers to enable them to produce a more accurate Airfix A-4P with little fuss. If you have any constructive comments for my Airfix A-4 thread I would appreciate them.

Regards

FAAMAN

 

[NAVY870]

11 minutes ago, FAAMAN said:

 

Now I must agree with you on the maintainer's opinions of the colour hues as they really did come under abuse and being an Ex-A-4 maintainer myself I'd be hard pressed to answer what was the exact FS colour applied to camouflaged RAN A-4Gs was (it was a paint by Dow Corning). I do have colour chips of these

That's because there was no FS colour equivalent. 

It was BS.381C- 693 & BS.381C-697 as per drawing AMR/SKY/45-2 issue 1 dated 22-09-78.

Amazing what you find in corrosion controls rubbish bin

 

[FAAMAN]

Well done NAVY870!! I knew you hung out around the Corrosion Control facility, but the bins too

[NAVY870]

33 minutes ago, FAAMAN said:

Well done NAVY870!! I knew you hung out around the Corrosion Control facility, but the bins too

Got both my copies of NAVAIRs from the 805 bin, drawings from the corrosion control bin

quite a lot of nice things for Macchi bangs seats (that surprisingly fit very well on Sea Venom seats) from the seat bay shelves

and a radio or two from the back of Avionics R&D

One cannot restore Sea Venom Fireflies or Sea Furies with at least some rummaging and outright theft!

Just noticed I said shelf I meant bin honest Chief 

 

[Uncle Uncool]

On 9/13/2017 at 3:14 AM, FAAMAN said:

Wow Uncool that's wonderful to be related to one of those very brave fliers, hats off to you and I hope the gentleman is well. He must have some hair raising stories from the conflict.

Many thanks, my mate! Fortunately, Lt. Cdr. Benítez is doing very well. He's flying airliners ever since he retired the Navy. Of course I'm quite honoured, although I'd have felt best if the reasons for his having put the life on the line had been much more than a mere act of bravado just in order to try and strive for symphaty, as I think that's the only true reason that the drunken General ever thought of when getting our country involved in such a terrible war. That put aside, I'm very proud of Marco and all of the airmen who had to heed the battle call.

 

I've had a taste for aircraft very early in my life, so everything related to aviation fascinated me since I was a five-year-old toddler, which was my age two years after the war. The stories Marco told me are very interesting, especially all the technical, strategical and operational data about the A-4Q and the missions he flew during the conflict. I also met some of the SuE jocks in the 3rd Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Caza y Ataque. Could listen to their tales until the old men tired themselves first. I tried to become a fighter jock in the Air Force after finishing secondary school, but unfortunately for me, the institution was very far from being what it had been in the '80s.      

Marco even appeared on one of the Dogfights episodes in History Channel regarding the South Atlantic War of '82. Dunno whether there is an English-translated version of it.

 

Clickie there

On 9/13/2017 at 3:14 AM, FAAMAN said:

Didn't mean to come on so strong about the 'correctness' of colours that "should" be used. Guess I fell into "THE TRAP" of my own correctness. Been researching this subject far too long with very little real info to be had for post war schemes, getting a bit frustrating, as there is masses of incorrect info out there with the occasional gem to be found. My head hurts from all the translating I've been doing, much of it to no end at all.

Oh, never mind; I know how frustrating it can be not to be able to be 100% certain about what colour to use on a build, even though you've got the right persons to ask. Especially regarding the camo colours on both the A-4P and C during the Falklands War; arguments can get to be real hair-splitting!

There's also the very good advice these same persons might give you with regard to the shade you're going to use on a 1/48th scale model. It's been the case with some colours I've asked a pilot who flew the four-coloured camo on the F-86F-40. He suggested using specific Humbrol colour paints, and when I got to painting the Hasegawa 1/48 kit, the colour would look kind of darker than it had to be. Sometimes, he said to me, it's necessary to tone down the colours so that they looked right in scale.

 

Let me know if I can help you out with translation.

 

On 9/13/2017 at 3:14 AM, FAAMAN said:

Absolutely correct on C-222 when it finally got it's camo colours as they seemed 'deeper' in colour than the pre-war pics show and then when the 30mm cannon mod was done the colour changed to the mid 80's grey-green/chocolate camo with grey(?) undersides. (Still trying to sort this point out as info on the Post war schemes is a bit "sparse".

I 'spose what is really hard to grasp is the vast number of hues that A-4Ps wore of the same basic camo, not difficult to understand really as every batch was 'hand mixed', something I've read over and over again.

Personally, I really think that the changes in camo that C-222 went through after the war are mind-boggling in itself. How many times was it repainted? Sometimes I thought about bringing a scalpel blade to the museum in order to scratch the paint layers on it to see what colours I could find below!

In addition to those colours you mention when she was fitted with the 30mm cannons, check this picture below and compare it to the one I posted before, where she's got the 30mm cannons.

 

https://i.imgur.com/v6rUExg.jpg

On 9/13/2017 at 3:14 AM, FAAMAN said:

If you have any constructive comments for my Airfix A-4 thread I would appreciate them.

I've been reading your excellent Airfix A-4 thread, and to my own puzzlement, I found something that is driving me bonkers. Is it possible that the nose on the 1/48 Hasegawa A-4B looked just like that in the 1/72 Airfix kit? I've been toying with the plans you posted, and it seems the whole nose in the Hasegawa kit not only is off but also shorter.

The nose on the 1/48 Hasegawa A4D-2 (kit #09426), I've got looks quite like that on the plans of the A-4A you posted. And it's the same with the 1/48 Hasegawa A-4B (kit #09784).

The tip on both the 1/48 Hasegawa kit noses has got the droop present on the A-4A. I always thought that the noses on my built kits looked sort of funny, but not until now did I realise why that was.

 

 

You see?

Cheers,

 

Unc²

[FAAMAN]

Firstly, thanks for the comment on my thread And the translation offer, very much appreciated I'll be watching the YouTube link soonest.

I do not know the 1/48 scale Hasegawa A-4B kit so I'm not really able to comment on it's correctness, I don't model 1/48th scale. With permission I've used this gentleman's superb 1/48scale Hasegawa A-4P and A-4C builds here  http://hsfeatures.com/features04/a4cppds_1.htm

as references in my A-4 thread, these two builds are the best on the web IMHO for authentic FAA Falklands era A-4's. A quick note, A-4As (A4D-1) and A-4Bs (A4D-2) are identical in length, wingspan and height and shapes, the main difference being that a 'B' has an In Flight Refuelling Probe and "Tadpole rudder".

Couldn't agree more about toning down some colours to better represent reality, the so called "scale effect" lightening of a base colour. It really should be used in conjunction with other techniques as lightening the base colour is not the whole story.

Remember what I said about being caught out by "preserved" aircraft, well, the pic you referred to is actually of A-4P C-232 ex-USN Bu.No.142749 preserved as C-222 (no sure why) complete with a 'dummy' 20mm armament and root fairings. C-232 received the 30mm DEFA cannon mod along with the rest of the surviving A-4P/C's and this has been removed to better represent a "Falklands" A-4P. Note the incorrect 'broad' fin ID band used (an A-4C only feature either in yellow or blue) and the complete lack of wing ID panels.

Regards

FAAMAN

 

 

 

[Uncle Uncool]

Neil!

I'm confused a little bit now.

I've nicked the instructions plans on the 1/48 Hasegawa A-4B kit from the net and enlarged the side profile views in order to compare them to the plans on your Airfix thread.

 

 

You can see that the noses are quite different; am I getting something wrong here? The longer nose profile is of your A-4B side view plans posted on the Airfix thread, and the shorter one is from the Hasegawa 1/48 A-4B painting instruction sheet side views.

The noses on both my quarter scale Hasegawa kits look like the shorter profile, while the real pictures of the A-4Bs all look like the longer one.  Always thought they looked odd.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Uncle Uncool
I'm a little hot potato right now!