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Wildcat V Colour Conundrum


Fernando

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Hi, everyone,

 

Following with the assembly of a Hobbyboss FM-1 as a Wildcat V, JV439 "C9N" from 733 Sqn, NAS, I have run into an unexpected colour conundrum. It might be just my own imagination and the  badge of the "Colour Police" I am proud of.

 

Being a General Motors - Eastern built machine, ANA "substitute colours" should have been used. Setting aside the problem of the undersurfaces (ANA 610 Sky or ANA 603 Light Grey?) lets fix our attention on the upper camouflage. Colours should be ANA 613 Olive Drab over 603 Sea Grey. Thing is, that the "dark-light" relationship of these colours, is inverse to the MAP colours EDSG/DSG. Therefore, the areas in OD should photograph in B&W as "dark" and the SG as "light" (the opposite in a EDSG/DSG).  A well known B&W photo of  JV579 "That Old Thing" shows the dark area around the cockpit. A colour photo of Corsair II "531", shows OD as clearly darker than SG.  The instructions of the Xtradecal sheet also show the dark color as OD and the dark zone around the cockpit.

 

On the other hand, A colour photo of "6Q", from 882 Sqn. on HMS Searcher, clearly shows the front left cowling in a "greenish colour" (more later), therefore, the cockpit area should have been in the "dark grey" colour. I say so because, though apparently a V, the colours are most probably EDSG/DSG (and the undersurfaces Sky! Repainted? overspray can be seen inside the wheel well!) In this photo, the "dark" area remains around the cockpit, but would be the Grey component of the scheme.

 

Finally, there is a picture of "C9N" on a Sturtivant book  ("Squadrons of the FAA") I have no access to.

 

Summing up:

 

1) Should a Wildcat V be painted in OD/SG ? Or would have been painted in Grumman's near-MAP colours? It might have been that the early GM batches were painted in near-MAP colours as per Grumman's practice? JV439 lies roughly in the middle of the FM-1/V contract of 312 machines according to Sturtivant; then came the FM-2/VI batches;

2) Is it possible that they were repainted? (as 6Q could show);

3) If painted in OD/SG, should the relative positions of the colours reversed in attention to their "dark-light" relationship, like in JV579?

4) Undersurfaces remain a "50/50" contest between ANA610 and 601?

 

Thank you in advance,

 

Fernando

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I have the Sturtivant book mentioned.  The view is of the starboard side of the aircraft.  The lighter colour is around the cockpit, with the darker one immediately aft.  The slope of the camouflage segments makes it possible that a view of the port side might well have the dark colour at least partly over the cockpit sides.  The very front of the cowling is the darker colour, but this doesn't look as thought it will have much if any visible on the port side.

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I just finished a mark v. In my research i found the wildcat/martlet/hellcat in FAA had two patterns just like early war spitfires and hurricanes. Be carefully aware of this in photos. I chose to do the "A" scheme on mine as i had no photo's. Im not discounting the sturtivant book. As i dont have access to it. I just found multiple photo's of martlets with two very distinctly different patterns on multiple researches. I found one pattern that went from port/forward angling back to starboard rear. And a distinctly different pattern that was the mirror image starting starboard forward and angling back to port rear. It could be a case of re-painting and or a case of two factory patterns or very well could be the way old film shows paint colors.

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9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I have the Sturtivant book mentioned.  The view is of the starboard side of the aircraft.  The lighter colour is around the cockpit, with the darker one immediately aft.  The slope of the camouflage segments makes it possible that a view of the port side might well have the dark colour at least partly over the cockpit sides.  The very front of the cowling is the darker colour, but this doesn't look as thought it will have much if any visible on the port side.

Hi, Graham,

 

That doesn't seem to match the schematic in the Xtradecals instructions (identical to those in the old Aeromasters') The forward starboard is depicted as dark, with dark around the cockpit (with an forward "slope" of the segments) The scheme, on the other side, matches well the picture of JV579 (to the extent visible in spite of the "invasion bands").

 

Would you be so kind as to check this sheet (X48-103) in the Hannants site, for instance, and tell me your impressions?

 

FErnando

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9 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I just finished a mark v. In my research i found the wildcat/martlet/hellcat in FAA had two patterns just like early war spitfires and hurricanes. Be carefully aware of this in photos. I chose to do the "A" scheme on mine as i had no photo's. Im not discounting the sturtivant book. As i dont have access to it. I just found multiple photo's of martlets with two very distinctly different patterns on multiple researches. I found one pattern that went from port/forward angling back to starboard rear. And a distinctly different pattern that was the mirror image starting starboard forward and angling back to port rear. It could be a case of re-painting and or a case of two factory patterns or very well could be the way old film shows paint colors.

Even on mark Vs? Every mark had its own distinct scheme, as I could find in pictures (a similar search as you have made, for sure!) The scheme in the Xtradecals sheet corresponds to the one shown in the well-known JV579 picture.

 

Fernando

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1/48 is of course an invention of the devil but I do have the corresponding 1/72 sheet, X72-141.  There are frequent errors in Xtradecal transfers for FAA aircraft but in this case I think they have it just about right.  In the photo the camouflage pattern isn't altogether clear, with a number of tones apparent over the airframe.  What can be seen I personally have no trouble in reconciling with the Xtradecal drawing.  The main area of doubt for me is whether the darker colour immediately aft of the cockpit extends forward to wrap round the forward edge of the windscreen: in the photo it appears to stop a smidgen (say 4") forward of the cockpit rear bulkhead but whether that is due to a partial repaint or a trick of the light, I couldn't say.  It also appears to cover a little more of the spine than Xtradecal have shown, with the rear edge of the darker shade reaching the top of the fuselage about where the central frame of the canopy is when the canopy is slid right back.

 

BTW I can't see in the photo the radio mast shown by Xtradecal .  The "spike" on the top of the fin is clearly present though.

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Hi, Seahawk,

 

Thank you for your answer.

 

The scheme is pretty consistent, and carried over into Mk VIs. Roughly backwards sloped areas on the port (left) side and forward ones on the stardboard (right).  The dark area surrounds the cockpit more or less. Starboard forward cowling is lighter.

 

However, which are the actual colours? In a "normal" TSS, the "light" areas would be those in DSL (the "greenish component"), and the "dark" those in EDSG (the "grayish" component). On the contrary, in a "substitute ANA TSS" the dark areas would be OD (the "greenish"), while the light would be SG (the "grayish") I have seen depictions with the colours in both positions. To complicate everything, some "colour" pictures might well be "colorized"! (such as that of JV445 from 882nd Sqn, showing "reversed" colours, forward starboard cowling in DSL)

 

In the case of C9N, there should be a disk in a lighter colour (DSL) surrounding the "small" BEIF roundel. It has always puzzled me, that, though these repaints are usually done in the "top" camouflage colour, which is also usually the darker, in the case of the FAA they are invariably done in DSL. True that the "dark-light" contrast between EDSG and DSL seems to be very low.

 

Can we safely assume a "ANA substitute TSS" in which the dark areas are in OD?

 

Thank you for your attention,

 

Fernando

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British camouflage and markings were not as anarchic as we modellers, always on the lookout for an unusual scheme, sometimes like to think.  I tend to assume that, if something was supposed to be finished in certain colours, it probably was, unless I have good grounds for believing it was not.  Which means that personally I would be happy to go with ANA Substitute TSS colours with ANA 603 Olive drab as the darker colour.  i would also incline towards ANA602 Light Gray for the undersides.   What a pity my own C9N, built years ago, is in MAP TSS colours!

 

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Hi All!

    We seem to be overthinking this. The Wildcat V was  delivered in:

 

1- initial deliveries were painted like the Grumman Wildcats, bronze green cockpits and the TSS scheme with colors which matched the MAP shades.

2-Later, and the majority of the airframes were painted in US OD, US Sea Grey and ANA 603 Non-specular Light Grey

 

I do not know when the switch occurred.

 

Check the camo pattern against the standard, if it differs, it was probably repainted-in the correct MAP shades.

 

Bruce

Edited by Bruce Archer
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Fernando i have a photo in my collection that has a Martlet, Corsair, Fulmars, and Possibly a Sea Hurricane in color undergoing maintenance. I have a few other color photos i came across which may or may not been colorized. I cant upload but if you are interested i can email it to you. Just let me know ? 

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17 hours ago, Bruce Archer said:

Hi All!

    We seem to be overthinking this. The Wildcat V was  delivered in:

 

1- initial deliveries were painted like the Grumman Wildcats, bronze green cockpits and the TSS scheme with colors which matched the MAP shades.

2-Later, and the majority of the airframes were painted in US OD, US Sea Grey and ANA 603 Non-specular Light Grey

 

I do not know when the switch occurred.

 

Check the camo pattern against the standard, if it differs, it was probably repainted-in the correct MAP shades.

 

Bruce

Hi, Bruce!

 

I am more than happy in following "standard" regulations for the scheme; after all, as seahawk said, things FAA were pretty regulated and non-anarchical.

 

Also your summary above is very appropriate.

 

However, what I have always seen is that the "standard" scheme in most FAA fighters put the "dark area" around the cockpit. Now, in "MAP-TSS" (allow me this barbarism) colours that would be the EDSG, which is "darker" (in B&W) than DSG. On the contrary, on a "US-TSS", OD would be darker than SG. So if a "colour-by-colour" replacement was done, "greenish for greenish" (OD for DSL) and "grayish for greyish" (SG for EDSG) the relative dark-light qualities would be inverted.

 

Regarding "C9N", it looks like it is in the middle of the production run (JV439), and that a picture in Sturtivant's "Squadrons of..." shows the "light area" around the cockpit (compatible with the above?) But on JV549 the area around the cockpit is dark.

 

Personally, I would cheerfully go for the more standard solution (as depicted, for instance, in the Techmod Mk. VI decal sheet -but they depict them in "MAP-TSS". The Xtradecal sheet, on the contrary, tries to faithfully represent "substitute" colours, and then the dark area is depicted in OD in the sideview -though in the plan view they invert it!) trusting in some strange colour shift in the JV549 picture. That's in the end what I have done in my build. When  finished, I shall try post some picture via Flickr.

 

One further Martlet question. Martlets I had non-folding wings with the wide spacing between guns. Martlets III had the non-folding wings with "short" spacing (as in the F4F-3)?

 

Thank you for your attention.

 

FErnando

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Olive Drab and Dark Slate Grey are not that far apart in terms of reflectivity and hue. A misperception probably arises because so many models and profiles show a medium or light toned greenish-grey colour more like Light Slate Grey to represent Dark Slate Grey and to be fair some colour photos also seem to show that. But in terms of the colour standard - and bearing in mind the instability of OD - the difference between OD 41 and DSG is only 4.66, well within the typical variance parameters of up to 5.0 for wartime applied paints. And ANA 613 to DSG is only 3.02. 

 

DSG is 12% diffuse reflectivity to EDSG's 10%, whilst OD should have been similar to MAP Dark Green - 7-8%.

 

DSG is a Munsell GY - Green-Yellow - but only just over the threshold from the Y (Yellow) of the ODs. With applied paints and weathering I think all bets would be off when it comes to tonal contrasts in photos or even differentiating between US applied and British applied paints. 

 

Nick

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On 8/22/2017 at 4:24 AM, Fernando said:

Hi, Bruce!

 

I am more than happy in following "standard" regulations for the scheme; after all, as seahawk said, things FAA were pretty regulated and non-anarchical.

 

Also your summary above is very appropriate.

 

However, what I have always seen is that the "standard" scheme in most FAA fighters put the "dark area" around the cockpit. Now, in "MAP-TSS" (allow me this barbarism) colours that would be the EDSG, which is "darker" (in B&W) than DSG. On the contrary, on a "US-TSS", OD would be darker than SG. So if a "colour-by-colour" replacement was done, "greenish for greenish" (OD for DSL) and "grayish for greyish" (SG for EDSG) the relative dark-light qualities would be inverted.

 

Regarding "C9N", it looks like it is in the middle of the production run (JV439), and that a picture in Sturtivant's "Squadrons of..." shows the "light area" around the cockpit (compatible with the above?) But on JV549 the area around the cockpit is dark.

 

Personally, I would cheerfully go for the more standard solution (as depicted, for instance, in the Techmod Mk. VI decal sheet -but they depict them in "MAP-TSS". The Xtradecal sheet, on the contrary, tries to faithfully represent "substitute" colours, and then the dark area is depicted in OD in the sideview -though in the plan view they invert it!) trusting in some strange colour shift in the JV549 picture. That's in the end what I have done in my build. When  finished, I shall try post some picture via Flickr.

 

One further Martlet question. Martlets I had non-folding wings with the wide spacing between guns. Martlets III had the non-folding wings with "short" spacing (as in the F4F-3)?

 

Thank you for your attention.

 

FErnando

Yes, the Martlet III was equivalent to the F4F-3, the Greek airframes being F4F-3B

 

Bruce

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On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 9:43 AM, Nick Millman said:

Olive Drab and Dark Slate Grey are not that far apart in terms of reflectivity and hue. A misperception probably arises because so many models and profiles show a medium or light toned greenish-grey colour more like Light Slate Grey to represent Dark Slate Grey and to be fair some colour photos also seem to show that. But in terms of the colour standard - and bearing in mind the instability of OD - the difference between OD 41 and DSG is only 4.66, well within the typical variance parameters of up to 5.0 for wartime applied paints. And ANA 613 to DSG is only 3.02. 

 

DSG is 12% diffuse reflectivity to EDSG's 10%, whilst OD should have been similar to MAP Dark Green - 7-8%.

 

DSG is a Munsell GY - Green-Yellow - but only just over the threshold from the Y (Yellow) of the ODs. With applied paints and weathering I think all bets would be off when it comes to tonal contrasts in photos or even differentiating between US applied and British applied paints. 

 

Nick

It's good to see you back here Nick

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On 8/18/2017 at 10:28 AM, Seahawk said:

BTW I can't see in the photo the radio mast shown by Xtradecal .  The "spike" on the top of the fin is clearly present though.

Hi, everyone,

 

Is there somewhere a survey on the radio equipment and antennae fittings on FAA Martlet/Wildcats, Hellcats and Corsairs? Much in the way there is one on the radio and IFF devices on Spitfires. I have seen many variations on these on the three aircraft mentioned: mast/no mast antennaes, whip antennaes...

 

In the case of Martlet/Wildcats, early mark Martlets seem to invariably show the "forward canted" antennae, Mark VI Wildcats the upright one. Mark Vs show three arrangements in photos: these both kind of "mast" antennae, plus some show a no mast but whip antennae arrangement, quite similar to that found on some (contemporary?) Hellcat Mk I (which shows a cut down mast and a whip antennae -800 Sqn machines on HMS Emperor, for example) Some Corsairs also show the forward mast removed.

 

In the case of "C9N", it looks like it had no mast and a whip antennae instead?

 

Fernando

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21 minutes ago, Fernando said:

In the case of "C9N", it looks like it had no mast and a whip antennae instead?

Can't see a whip antenna either but, with due allowance for the quality of the photo, I certainly wouldn't rule out its being there.

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8 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Can't see a whip antenna either but, with due allowance for the quality of the photo, I certainly wouldn't rule out its being there.

But definitely no mast.

 

Thank you; not having acces go the picture, I am very much guessing at the configuration!

 

Fernando

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  • 1 month later...

Hi guys, am currently working on a Wildcat MkV as well. Is it definite that Eastern were using ANA 603 for the undersides? Vought managed to use ANA 610 for their undersides and if early production aircraft Wildcat V's were being finished in MAP TSS colours then they would have a good idea what sky should look like. Did they run out of MAP paint and switch to a different supplier? 

 

Best regards

 

Nick

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Hi, 85sqn,

 

It looks like the new factories painted aircraft with the "substitute" colours according to the ANA agreement almost from the start. By the time Eastern began production of Grumman types, the regulation colour was the "substitute" ANA colour and not the MAP anymore. It was Grumman, on that view, that was lingering on with a surpassed standard, when applying MAP colours and not the new "substitute" ones. I do not know the specific provider that supplied them.

 

Fernando

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15 hours ago, Fernando said:

It was Grumman, on that view, that was lingering on with a surpassed standard, when applying MAP colours and not the new "substitute" ones.

I would suggest it might depend on existing stocks and/or suppliers,  as in an existing supply chain?

 

@Dana Bell  may know something on this.

 

I did a google image search for "Wildcat V"

EDIT

On 17/08/2017 at 22:33, Fernando said:

On the other hand, A colour photo of "6Q", from 882 Sqn. on HMS Searcher, clearly shows the front left cowling in a "greenish colour" (more later), therefore, the cockpit area should have been in the "dark grey" colour. I say so because, though apparently a V, the colours are most probably EDSG/DSG (and the undersurfaces Sky! Repainted? overspray can be seen inside the wheel well!) In this photo, the "dark" area remains around the cockpit, but would be the Grey component of the scheme.

DOH! didn't make the correlation!  Anyway, the below is the pic Fernando refers too.

 

this turned up

Grumman Wildcat V aircraft of 882 Squadron FAA on the deck of HMS Searcher, 1944

 

assuming the caption is correct?  and the colours are not too off,  it may help?grumman-wildcat-701989.jpg

 

EDIT

in b/w (see 85 sq post below)

4 hours ago, 85sqn said:

So that is JV445- also shown in B+W here: 

 

grumman-wildcat-v-1881245.jpg

Ah, I did wonder about the "red wheels hubs"  .....

 

 

Are these maybe early FM-1's?

On 21/08/2017 at 15:24, Bruce Archer said:

We seem to be overthinking this. The Wildcat V was  delivered in:

 

1- initial deliveries were painted like the Grumman Wildcats, bronze green cockpits and the TSS scheme with colors which matched the MAP shades.

2-Later, and the majority of the airframes were painted in US OD, US Sea Grey and ANA 603 Non-specular Light Grey

 

I do not know when the switch occurred.

 

HTH

 

Edited by Troy Smith
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18 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I would suggest it might depend on existing stocks and/or suppliers,  as in an existing supply chain?

 

@Dana Bell  may know something on this.

 

I did a google image search for "Wildcat V"

 

this turned up

Grumman Wildcat V aircraft of 882 Squadron FAA on the deck of HMS Searcher, 1944

 

assuming the caption is correct?  and the colours are not too off,  it may help?grumman-wildcat-701989.jpg

 

Are these maybe early FM-1's?

 

HTH

 

So that is JV445- also shown in B+W here: 

www.mediastorehouse.com/p/134/grumman-wildcat-v-1881245.jpg

 

120 a/c into the MkV production run out of 311 I believe. It and it's mates look like they are painted in MAP colours.

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On 24/8/2017 at 1:35 PM, Bruce Archer said:

Yes, the Martlet III was equivalent to the F4F-3, the Greek airframes being F4F-3B

 

Bruce

AFAIK, the ex-Greek airframes were F4F-3As, diverted straight from the U.S. Navy order for 95 of this type. I see no reason why they would be re-designated.

The other Mk. III airframes were the first 10 from the British order for 100 G-36Bs that, having non-folding wings with four guns, were re-designated by the FAA as Mk. IIIs, since the difference from F4F-3As was minimal. These aircraft were paid for by Britain, I doubt they were entitled to having a U.S. Navy designation. In this case 'B' stood for "the second" G-36 export model, 'A' referring to the French order.

The follow-on British order for Wright R-1820 engined F4F-4s was rearranged under the Lend-Lease agreement, hence earning a U.S. Navy designation as F4F-4B. This seems to be the only offcial use of the 'B' suffix as far as Wildacts are concerned.

 

Claudio

Edited by ClaudioN
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22 hours ago, Fernando said:

Hi, 85sqn,

 

It looks like the new factories painted aircraft with the "substitute" colours according to the ANA agreement almost from the start. By the time Eastern began production of Grumman types, the regulation colour was the "substitute" ANA colour and not the MAP anymore. It was Grumman, on that view, that was lingering on with a surpassed standard, when applying MAP colours and not the new "substitute" ones. I do not know the specific provider that supplied them.

 

Fernando

But why ANA603? Eastern were using ANA610 on their Avengers for the FAA were they not?

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