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What Color are Luftwaffe Cockpits?


Crossiant Oliver

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Yes, I know that question is a little stupid, but the only Luftwaffe kits I have are from gift sets, where most of the time they say to paint the interior the same color as the fuselage (I mostly build allied aircraft). I would think interior green, but is there a more specific and accurate Luftwaffe interior color? If there is tell me the model master/humbrol number or name (those are the paints I use the most).

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Prepare yourself for a raft of replies from a variety of people, as well as many inconsistencies. My take on this is that during the early years of the Luftwaffe's history, most of the a/c interiors were finshed in what the RLM (German air ministry) called grey green with the RLM code RLM 02. It's a bit ;ighter and greyer than RAF interior green. Instrument panels were either dark grey (can't recall the RLM code) or RLM 02. Later in the war, most of the fighter interiors were painted this same dark grey. I'm unsure about bombers and other a/c but, when in doubt, I usually opt for RLM 02 which can have variety in terms of tint. I guess it depends what a/c you're planning to build. I don't know the model master/humbrol references but I'm sure others will. Best of luck.

Paul

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I went through this very question over the weekend....

 

RLM02

for Humbrol seems to be:

AA2240 (enamel)

AB0240 (acrylic)

for Model Masters seems to be:

2071 (enamel)

4770 (acrylic) - these numbers seem to be Model Master's stock code.

 

RLM66

for Humbrol doesn't look there's an exact match

 

for Model Masters seems to be:

2079 (enamel)

4449 (acrylic)

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1 hour ago, Pauls9cb said:

called grey green with the RLM code RLM 02. It's a bit ;ighter and greyer than RAF interior green.

Plenty of RLM 02 model paints are grey-green,  but the colour is more of an amber grey,   there have been thread on this before


 

 

note this from Nick Millman

Quote

 

As with the Japanese Zero colour it is the amber or brownish undertone that seems to get missed.

Nick

 

 

here's a chip

53wh2p.jpg

 

 

 

note 

Revell 45 light olive is matched to RAL 7003 Moosgrau (Moss Grey) which is closest to 5 out of 6 samples of RLM 02 measured. 

 

 

 

RLM 66 officially "Schawarz Grau"  or black grey,   it's a very dark grey,    I read somewhere there were 11 formulation changes, 

 

there is some  useful info here

http://hogges-modellbygge.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/eagle-editon-rlm-chips-comparison.html

 

"These pictures are taken in daylight and in raw format. Remember that it is useless to judge a color if your monitor is not calibrated correctly. I use a Spyder 3 Express to calibrate my monitor."

Quote

RLM 02

DSC_6775-1.jpg

Gunze H70 is to light but perfect for 1:72 scale. This will probably look quite right after a wash. A very good starting point.


Tamiya XF22:1+ XF49:1 Is to brown and dark for any scale and useless in this form.


RLM 66

 

DSC_6776-1.jpg

Gunze H416 is to light but perfect for 1:72 scale. This will probably look quite right after a wash or just add som black. A very good starting point.


Tamiya XF69:25 + XF2:1 is to dark but it's easy to lighten up the mix with a little more white.

 

 

HTH

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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CO, as Paul indicated; the instrument panels were painted RLM 66 Schwartzgrau(black-grey). The cockpit sides and floors were painted in RLM 02 Grau. This was the regulation until late 1940-early 1941. The Luftwaffe then directed that cockpits were to be painted in RLM 66. As always, there are exceptions. A thread posted here a few weeks back showed that the Dornier Do 17Z bomber had its cockpit in RLM 66 from the beginning of the war. So, check your references, or ask here for assistance. Generally bombers and transport aircraft would(after Jan. 1941) have the cockpit in RLM 66, and the area behind the cockpit(bomb bay(s), cargo/personnel cabin) would be in RLM 02. Maritime recon. and bombers followed the same pattern. Again, exceptions did occur. And, pay attention here, as new information about Luftwaffe painting directions seem to pop-up every couple of weeks.  Lawzer gave you the Model Master and Humbrol paint numbers to help you in your painting. As for a Humbrol equivalent, you may have to mix it. Start with Humbrol No. 32, and add a little black(suggest Humbrol No. 33 black, mixing different brands may not work) to it.

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Very briefly, one thing worth remembering about the real RLM 02 is that the actual colour could vary quite a bit, complaints about which prompted the RLM on several occasions to respond to complaints about this variation that "........it was impossible on technical grounds to guarantee uniformity of colour between batches of the colour 02 and as such was not grounds for complaint...", or words to that effect.     Bearing this real life inconsistency in mind, using any of the currently available greeny grey model paints labelled as 02 (other than the really dark ones like the early Humbrol enamel 02) should be OK such as Gunze Aqueous H70 (if you can still get it), Mig's  A-Mig 217 and Model Color 886(?).

 

The change in cockpit colours from 02 to 66 for fighters was brought into effect in November 1941. However, there were exceptions where the Bf 109 and 110 were concerned prior to this where 1940 period photos show 109s with 66 cockpits and 110s with the pilot section of the cockpit in 66 and the remainder in 02 (and some later build C & D variants with an all 66 finish). As far as the 109E goes, current research identifies this as being due to which sub-contractor built the airframe. I currently believe the same to be (possibly) true for the 110 but I've yet to dig out further definitive info from my manufacturers files.

 

HTH

 

Dave

 

Edited by tango98
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Just to muddy the waters further, I remember reading on the old 109 Lair website that examples of a dark green shade of RLM66 has been found on late-war Bf 109s.

 There was also some discussion as to black having been found on the upper portion of BoB era Luftwaffe fighter cockpits that had been originally painted in RLM02. It's been a while since I read the articles, but I'm sure that both the '109 and '110 were mentioned. I think the discussion was on hyperscale,  and there was also an article in Scale Aircraft Modelling where relics from crashed aircraft had been examined.

 

 Cheers,

 Mark.

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29 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

as to black having been found on the upper portion of BoB era Luftwaffe fighter cockpits that had been originally painted in RLM02

I know what you mean. In one of my boxes stored in our garage I have a decidedly bent and buckled map holder thingy from a 109E excavated in the UK which, originally  finished in 02 had been over painted in either black or 66; the 02 clearly showing up from under the buckled sections where the 66/black had flaked off. To be honest, after 60 odd years under a field it's hard to say if it is black or 66 and whether it was sprayed or brushed on.

 

Cheers

Dave

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Oh, CO, the landing gear, landing bays, and, the interior of the landing doors was painted RLM 02 from the beginning to the end of the war. Some of the late-war builds, though may have a different color due to shortages, etc. But, don't worry too much about that as unless someone can produce a color photo(s) of your subject; who can say that you're wrong? As tango98 pointed out, you don't need to worry whether the MM or Humbrol is "spot on"; as long as it is close; you are good to go.

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1 hour ago, JPuente54 said:

Oh, CO, the landing gear, landing bays, and, the interior of the landing doors was painted RLM 02 from the beginning to the end of the war. Some of the late-war builds, though may have a different color due to shortages, etc. But, don't worry too much about that as unless someone can produce a color photo(s) of your subject; who can say that you're wrong? As tango98 pointed out, you don't need to worry whether the MM or Humbrol is "spot on"; as long as it is close; you are good to go.

I have seen colour pics (Me-109 E) that show landing gear painted in the same colour as the undersurfaces.

 

A+technician+is+examining+the+damage+of+

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Unless I know (or suspect) specifically otherwise, the rule I use for cockpits and crew stations for WWII Luftwaffe is as follows:

Reichsluftministrium (RLM) instuctions for aircradft production upto  November 1941, cockpits andcrew areas were to be RLM 02 with the exception of instrument panels, which were RLM 66 with black instrument faces.

After November 1941, all cockpit and crew areas visible through the windows were to be RLM 66.  Instrument panels incuded.

Fuel lines were yellow, oil lines were brown, coolant lines were green, oxygen lines were blue and fire extinguisher lines were red.

Simple rules, no doubt clouded by the fog of war........

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10 hours ago, FatFlyHalf said:

Unless I know (or suspect) specifically otherwise, the rule I use for cockpits and crew stations for WWII Luftwaffe is as follows:

Reichsluftministrium (RLM) instuctions for aircradft production upto  November 1941, cockpits andcrew areas were to be RLM 02 with the exception of instrument panels, which were RLM 66 with black instrument faces.

After November 1941, all cockpit and crew areas visible through the windows were to be RLM 66.  Instrument panels incuded.

Fuel lines were yellow, oil lines were brown, coolant lines were green, oxygen lines were blue and fire extinguisher lines were red.

 

Simple rules, no doubt clouded by the fog of war........

 

This is always a good position to take. Unless there's proof to the contrary, you can't go far wrong painting Luftwaffe interiors thus.

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5 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

This is always a good position to take. Unless there's proof to the contrary, you can't go far wrong painting Luftwaffe interiors thus.

 

You certainly can go wrong painting cockpits thus.  Somewhere between 1938, when 02 and/or 01 (silver, which everyone forgets about) were stipulated for interiors and 1941 when, "the interior colour is in shade 02 in principle. Shade 01 may not be used here. Only the interior walls of glazed cockpits and canopies will be protected against dazzle with shade 66" some companies had already started finishing interiors in 66.

There is irrefutable evidence, extant today, which you can see if you fancy a trip to Norway, that both Junkers and Heinkel were painting the cockpits of some of their aircraft in RLM 66 from early production. This is certainly in 1940 for both companies, and, more debatably, before the war for Heinkel.

Tango 98 has already mentioned Messeschmitt production and certainly some aircraft which were damaged and subsequently repaired and returned to service also had the cockpits, or parts of them, refinished in RLM 66 in 1940. That too probably depends on where the repair was carried out.

RLM 66 was specified for instrument panels in 1938, so it was certainly available ("Shade 66, i.e. aviation lacquer 7107.66, will be used for instrument panels."

There really is no hard and fast rule that can be given and certainly no sort of cut off date between the two different finishes.

Cheers

Steve

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On 8/16/2017 at 8:36 AM, Stonar said:

 

You certainly can go wrong painting cockpits thus.  Somewhere between 1938, when 02 and/or 01 (silver, which everyone forgets about) were stipulated for interiors and 1941 when, "the interior colour is in shade 02 in principle. Shade 01 may not be used here. Only the interior walls of glazed cockpits and canopies will be protected against dazzle with shade 66" some companies had already started finishing interiors in 66.

There is irrefutable evidence, extant today, which you can see if you fancy a trip to Norway, that both Junkers and Heinkel were painting the cockpits of some of their aircraft in RLM 66 from early production. This is certainly in 1940 for both companies, and, more debatably, before the war for Heinkel.

Tango 98 has already mentioned Messeschmitt production and certainly some aircraft which were damaged and subsequently repaired and returned to service also had the cockpits, or parts of them, refinished in RLM 66 in 1940. That too probably depends on where the repair was carried out.

RLM 66 was specified for instrument panels in 1938, so it was certainly available ("Shade 66, i.e. aviation lacquer 7107.66, will be used for instrument panels."

There really is no hard and fast rule that can be given and certainly no sort of cut off date between the two different finishes.

Cheers

Steve

There's also extant photographic evidence that He 111s had RLM 66 cockpits at least by the P model.

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  • 2 years later...

Mmm...

 

How is RLM 66 compared to RLM 75, RAL 7012 basaltgrau or compared with FS 36440 or brittish dark sea grey or extra dark sea grey?

 

Cheers / André 

Edited by Andre B
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24 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

It is a very dark gray without the blue hue of EDSG.   Closer perhaps to Panzergrau.

 

Yes, I also think that's sounds like an good comparizon...

 

Cheers / André 

Edited by Andre B
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