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Finnish Ju-88A-4, info on gondola MG FF on certain serial numbers


MeneMene

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I'm working on the 1/48 ICM Ju-88A-4, and want to do a Finnish example. I have a Techmod decal sheet for aircraft JK-252, JK-256, JK-260 and JK-268. All of these aircraft in the decal diagrams have a MGFF mounted in the ventral gondola, and this is corroborated by pictures I have been able to find of each, such as here:

 

e5IT3dN.jpg

 

This is a big problem for me, as the kit does not provide this weapon.

 

I have also found one pictures of one aircraft, JK-267, both with and without the fixed MG FF. The paint scheme is different, but I'm pretty sure it's the same aircraft as this website only lists one JK-267.

 

Does anyone have any more info? I would absolutely love it if someone told me it was possible to build one of the above aircraft without the cannon. Was the cannon easily removable? Why do we have a picture of JK-267 with and without it?

 

If I... sigh... need to add one, what would be the best way? I see eduard makes a resin MG FF, same with some other manufacturers, but I'd have to scratchbuild the mount.

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Hi, MeneMene,

 

Most probably the aircrafts were modified in Finland (German mount for the forward firing MG/FF was different). So the planes were most probably delivered without the installation for the cannon and were modified at some point in their service life. Do you have any indication of the timeframe in which Techmod decal sheet protrays JK-267?

 

Fernando

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31 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Hi, MeneMene,

 

Most probably the aircrafts were modified in Finland (German mount for the forward firing MG/FF was different). So the planes were most probably delivered without the installation for the cannon and were modified at some point in their service life. Do you have any indication of the timeframe in which Techmod decal sheet protrays JK-267?

 

Fernando

That's the strange thing. The caption of the first picture I linked of JK-267 says it's from May 1943, a month after delivery, and it has the cannon. The second picture, in the snow and without the cannon, is dated as April 1944, a year later, so it was removed in the time period? Meanwhile I'm having trouble finding pictures of the other aircraft without the cannon.

Edited by MeneMene
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Also, maybe that second picture of JK-267 I linked has been mis-labelled, and is actually from post-war use as a trainer? That would explain the operating at a real airport and the removal of the ventral cannon.

 

Edit: Actually never mind, it still has the Swastika markings, so it's still during the continuation war

Edited by MeneMene
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Hi, MeneMene,

Yep, and the serial in White is also most intriguing. I shall try to find something and come back to you.

 

Fernando

1 minute ago, MeneMene said:

Also, maybe that second picture of JK-267 I linked has been mis-labelled, and is actually from post-war use as a trainer? That would explain the operating at a real airport and the removal of the ventral cannon.

No, I do not think so. The arms for the Hakaristi are visible. Post war it should have been replaced by a roundel.

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1 minute ago, Fernando said:

Yep, and the serial in White is also most intriguing. I shall try to find something and come back to you.

 

Thank you very much, I'm looking for any help I can get. Just to be clear, the aircraft I have decals for are JK-252, JK-256, JK-260 and JK-268. I linked pictures of -267 because that's the only images I can find of the same aircraft with and without the cannon. I'd love to be able to make one of those first four without the cannon, just not sure about the accuracy.

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I've now found another example of the aircraft without the cannon. It's hard to tell, but I'm fairly sure this is JK-252. You can see the last digit of the serial is a 2 in the image from the front, and the middle digit is probably a 5 (the top is flat) in the image from behind.

 

VrPsmSA.jpg

 

PhTdbK4.jpg

 

The colors of the spinners and tail number don't match the -252 I have on the decal sheet, but these images look colorized and so maybe they were filled in wrong. I have no idea of the time period of the images though.

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And here are some different pictures of JK-252, which apparently are from 1944. If my identification of the two color images is correct (which I think it is, with some incorrect colorization), this looks to be much later, the paint markings are worn and faded (the 2 on the tail is almost invisible and the yellow fuselage band looks to have been overpainted), and it now carries the ventral cannon where earlier it clearly did not.

 

JussiKalle.jpg

 

Aerodynaamiset.jpg

 

So my current conclusion is that it would be accurate to model JK-252 without the ventral cannon in the relatively clean and earlier paintwork, and that at some later point it had the cannon added. I'm certainly not an expert so if anyone has information to the contrary please let me know. Finally, in the first colorized image from the front, is there an MG 81 in the front windscreen or is that something else sticking out? I know that the Finnish examples usually had these removed, but there is definitely something there and it doesn't quite look like an MG barrel.

 

Thanks in advance

Edited by MeneMene
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MeneMene i believe the last comment about the front windscreen is the stiffener sighting bar for the MG. The gun itself isnt mounted you can see a void in the canvas cover where the barrel should be sticking through. 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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Hi, MeneMene,

 

Back at home, I rummaged through the "pages" of my (electronic) copy of the Suomen Ilvamoimen Historia 02, on Do-17Z and Ju-88A, and certainly cannot throw any more light on the matter. The cannon seems the rule and looks detachable. True, no one has the MG81 windscreen gun; the one you point out looks like having the sight apparatus and the sleeve still on. The White serials correspond to the machines in their earlier German camo 70/71; they turned Black when they were repainted in Finnish "forest" camo. There is no schematic of the cannon installation; in 1/48 some detail must be done on it.

 

It is a good project. 

 

Fernando

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1 hour ago, Fernando said:

the one you point out looks like having the sight apparatus and the sleeve still on.

I have some separate photoetch sights, and I can probably sculpt the sleeve out of Milliput or something similar. If that fails, we can conclude that it would be more realistic to leave the gun off and plate over the opening, as opposed to putting the gun in (which I can't find a single picture of?)

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Hi, I´m not an expert, but the MG-FF:s were definitely factory mounted and standard type. I believe the early version, not used by us Finns, had the gun poking through starboard lower corner of front glazing, effectively using all the floor space devoted for the observer. See ICM 1:48 Ju 88 A-5 kit for details. Later it was transferred lower, to poke through front of underfloor gondola a.k.a BoLa. It was operated/serviced via an opening in front of observers chair, with the drum magazine above the floor level. Please note the front of BoLa is more sharply angled and not as round as the regular one in shape.

Unfortunately my online- pics went offline with the demise of Photobucket.  I´ll see what I can find and post it if it´s worth it. Regards, V-P

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55 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

Unfortunately my online- pics went offline with the demise of Photobucket.  I´ll see what I can find and post it if it´s worth it. Regards, V-P

Thanks- do you have any information on what conditions the gun would be removed like in the pictures I've linked above?

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As a first aid kit, here's a link

http://www.pienoismallit.net/keskustelut/9525_revellin-ju-88-1-32-suomi-projekti/?offset=20

to a Finnish forum conversation regarding our Ju 88:s. Actually just some pics are worth looking at...

I don't know why the gun would be removed. Looking at the pics of -252 especially the rear quarter view makes me wonder, if it's taken after the September -44 armistice and the yellow fuselage band is overpainted already. What do you think? It's not very neat? V-P

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8 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

makes me wonder, if it's taken after the September -44 armistice and the yellow fuselage band is overpainted already. What do you think?

I agree, I think the black and white pictures are from after the armistice. However, these pictures, if we assume they're from Sep 1944 or later, have the cannon. It's a bit blurry, but you can definitely see it in the black and white picture off the left wing.

 

The colorized pictures above it, which I think are the same aircraft, I think are earlier. The paint is much fresher, the tail numbers crisp, yellow band is there, etc. But there is no cannon.

 

Is it known for certain that every single Finnish Ju-88 was delivered with the cannon mounted? The timing of these color and b/w pictures would suggest that at some point, for whatever reason, JK-252 had its cannon removed, and then later had it put back on. I don't know how the cannon was removed or what went in it's place when it was taken out, but in those colorized pictures there's no trace of the cannon, not even a hole or covering plate. Or maybe JK-252 was delivered without the cannon, and then after a bit had one attached.

 

Thanks for the images of the mounting system, I will definitely save them. Based on those pictures I think I'm going to leave the cannon off like the colorized images, but I'm still puzzled as to why the cannon would be removed without a trace and then put back on later.

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On ‎10‎.‎8‎.‎2017 at 5:18 PM, MeneMene said:

VrPsmSA.jpg

 

 

The colors of the spinners and tail number don't match the -252 I have on the decal sheet, but these images look colorized and so maybe they were filled in wrong. I have no idea of the time period of the images though.

Hello!

 

YES, THE PICTURE ABOVE IS COLOURIZED AND THE SPINNER IS IN WRONG COLOURS.

 

The real spinner colours were much more dull: Olive RLM 71 or 70 green, white stripe and light blue sector. The warning on the entry hatch should have been in red, though?

 

The photo is from 1943 IIRC. Have no opportunity to check for a while.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited by Kari Lumppio
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1 hour ago, Kari Lumppio said:

The photo is from 1943 IIRC. Have no opportunity to check for a while.

Thank you! For the last unknown in the build, should I include the dive brakes or not if I'm aiming to make mine in the fall of 1943? Wikipedia says the Finns removed them in the summer of 1943, although I haven't been able to confirm. The black and white photographs of 252 from late 1944 definitely have the dive brakes removed.

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