Lancaster PA474 Question

[fightersweep]

Hi all!

 

Right! I'm no Lancaster expert, so I thought I would ask the good folks here. I'm planning to buy and build the new Airfix Lanc as PA474 as she appeared in 1983 in the AJ-G scheme. I've got things onboard such as the Lincoln style wheels and rudders and I know I need to depict the dual controls etc.

 

My question concerns the bomb aimers window. Looking at some photos of PA474 during her career, it seems to me that back in the 80s she had the more bulbous bomb aimers window. More recent photos seem to show a flatter, less pronounced nose glazing. Were there variations of nose glazing fitted to Lancs during the war, and maybe even now as per the PA474 photos I was looking at, or was I just seeing an optical illusion?

 

Finally, I would like to "crew up" my Lanc. Are there any recommendations for some more modern looking figures that fit the bill? I imagine I need figures with just flight suits and bone domes, but most aftermarket figures I see have the full works such as G-suits etc.

 

Hope I've not rambled too much and thanks in advance!
 

Best regards;

Steve

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello Steve ... not the best guy with Lanc's but i do believe through the cobwebs in my head yes they did at some point change nose glazing during the model's production. Im sure there are people here who can give you exact specs. You wouldnt be the first person looking for a crew here. The best i can offer is put a post up in the wanted section. Or just wait someone here will begin to offer there unused crew. As of recently there have been at least 2 maybe 3 people here in that very same situation. And it seems the aviation modelling community is split 50/50 some use them some Dont. I have a feeling you'll get your crew soon enough if you ask. 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Steve

Early Lancaster bombardier's transparencies were somewhat less curvy than later ones. Some bombers had had them changed during their service. Famous Sugar (˝No enemy plane will fly over Reich territory˝) started with a flat-ish nose transparency and ended with a fully blown one. She also exchanged needle propeller type for paddle blade variety, but that is another matter. I do not have Airfix kit but I believe both types of bombardier's transparency are provided.

I hope it helps. Unfortunately, I have no idea about AM crew figures. Cheers

Jure

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

54 minutes ago, fightersweep said:

or was I just seeing an optical illusion?

No,the bubble did change with the later type being more bulbous I think.

PJ productions did a really nice modern helicopter crew which could be adapted I'm sure.

Look at work in progress and see Dads203's SeaKing build as he uses them.

A wanted post will also get you some (Sorry I gave all of mine away last week at the club)

Lancaster expert will be along shortly no doubt.

 

Edit

I found this picture of her in 1963 and she has the later round one then but they may have fitted the earlier type at some stage of her B of B  career though I haven't found any pics yet.

 

[AWFK10]

PA474 did have the more bulbous window when painted as AJ-G: see the photos on this page.

[71chally]

The good news is that Airfix includes both styles of the bomb aimers 'bowl' in the kit.

If you are being absolutely true to PA474s appearance you might want to include the prominent cabin heater intake that is fitted stb'd side of the mid fuselage position. 

 

My understanding is that both of these features were late production items, as seen on FE and Coastal Command aircraft.

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by 71chally

[fightersweep]

Thanks everyone for the really helpful replies! I appreciate it greatly! 

 

So I can now fit the later, more bulbous bomb aimer's window and know I have it correct for PA474 as was in 1983. That's another point of detail crossed off the list. I even had to buy a 1/48 PA474 decal sheet just for the City of Lincoln badge as it seemed to be a lot larger then than it is now. I've ordered the base kit now, so hopefully I can get cracking on it next week.

 

Thanks also for the heads up on the PJ helicopter crew. Just had a look at them, and I think they will nicely fit the bill. I don't usually add figures to my aircraft, but the project I have in mind will see them fully crewed!

 

Many thanks again for the replies!

 

Best regards;

Steve

[fightersweep]

Thanks for the detail on the intake. Being that I've ordered the BI/III FE kit, I would hope that the intake is included in the box. I'll make sure it's duly fitted!

 

Best regards;

Steve

[gingerbob]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

And it seems the aviation modelling community is split 50/50 some use them some Dont.

 

I play it safe- I don't use them, but keep every last one anyway!

[Admiral Puff]

3 hours ago, fightersweep said:

Thanks for the detail on the intake. Being that I've ordered the BI/III FE kit, I would hope that the intake is included in the box. I'll make sure it's duly fitted!

 

Best regards;

Steve

 

I have a B.I/III FE on the bench at the moment and, sadly, the intake is not included. A bit of an oversight on Airfix's part, but it won't be all that hard to knock one up out of a piece of sprue or some square section strip.

[Max Headroom]

Another less obvious difference is the depth of the radiator intakes. Built as an FE variant she had the deeper style

 

http://l450v.alamy.com/450v/axtn4a/the-only-remaining-flying-avro-lancaster-bomber-pa474-city-of-lincoln-axtn4a.jpg

 

 compared to CWH's Mk.10 'Vera'

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_By1ld1F-_-o/TTd-WMSrPSI/AAAAAAAABZI/l1G7z8YpHrI/s1600/0033_3A.jpg

 

Im addition to the main wheels, the tailwheel was also a Lincoln type - not sure what the difference is though.

 

Trevor

 

 

[fightersweep]

Hi Trevor;

 

Good catcth on the radiator intakes! I could have easily missed that! I will also look into the Lincoln style tail wheel. I did buy some resin Lincoln main wheels a while back, but the set didn't include the tail wheel. I'll look around and see if one is available. It does look different and I'm having trouble seeing if PA474 had an anti shimmy tyre fitted at that time.

 

Surprised that the Airfix FE kit doesn't have the fuselage intake included....but an easy peasy fix luckily!

 

Steve

[PhantomBigStu]

The tail wheel iself isn't lincon type, though the mounting may be, its an airbus 300 nosewheel, hence it looks slightly different, have to make do as won't find a 1/72 a300 nosewheel

Edited August 9, 2017 by PhantomBigStu

[71chally]

I think there is a slight misconception in general when people mention Lincoln parts on PA474.

Late production Lancasters were built with the reshaped rudders and redesigned main wheels. 

Some had the larger diameter tailwheels with standard type tyres (ie not twin contact), but not all as you see many FE with twin contact type.

These features were used in Lincolns, Yorks, and (the wheels) Shackletons.

PA474 was built with the later style rudders and mainwheels, and it certainly had the larger type tailwheel from at least its testing days.

 

I've got the FE kit is aswel, my understanding is that not much work went into the kit to represent the FE, such as keeping the early style rudders, undercarriage and leaving out that fuselage intake.

I never have fathomed out whether Airfix did represent the deeper radiators, if they did then the Dambusters boxing has the wrong ones.

 

BTW, looking at pics of PA474, it appears that the shallow type nose bubble was only fitted for a short period, early to mid 1990s, before the original larger type was refitted.

 

@fightersweep  can I ask where you got your later style wheels?    All the post-war Lancaster boxings have the wrong wheel type and only Hasegawa provide the later shape fin/rudder!

 

[fightersweep]

Agreed on the misconception of "Lincoln" parts on late war/post war Lancasters. I think it's just become a way of explaining the differences between airframes. I suppose we really should be saying that Lincolns have late Lancaster style rudders? 

 

Thanks for the clarification on the shallow nose bubble on PA474. I think the photos I saw would have been from that period. As far as the resin main wheels are concerned, I think I got them from Alleycat along with the rudders, but I will check and get back to you if it were another source.

 

PhantomBigStu: An A300 nose wheel? I wouldn't have guessed that...ever! You're right! It would be a long search for a 1/72 A300 nose wheel!

 

Best regards;

Steve

[janneman36]

15 minutes ago, 71chally said:

I think there is a slight misconception in general when people mention Lincoln parts on PA474.

Late production Lancasters were built with the reshaped rudders and redesigned main wheels. 

Some had the larger diameter tailwheels with standard type tyres (ie not twin contact), but not all as you see many FE with twin contact type.

These features were used in Lincolns, Yorks, and (the wheels) Shackletons.

PA474 was built with the later style rudders and mainwheels, and it certainly had the larger type tailwheel from at least its testing days.

 

I've got the FE kit is aswel, my understanding is that not much work went into the kit to represent the FE, such as keeping the early style rudders, undercarriage and leaving out that fuselage intake.

I never have fathomed out whether Airfix did represent the deeper radiators, if they did then the Dambusters boxing has the wrong ones.

 

BTW, looking at pics of PA474, it appears that the shallow type nose bubble was only fitted for a short period, early to mid 1990s, before the original larger type was refitted.

 

@fightersweep  can I ask where you got your later style wheels?    All the post-war Lancaster boxings have the wrong wheel type and only Hasegawa provide the later shape fin/rudder!

 

@chally i am building NX611 and it also has the same mainwheels as PA474 and the wheels i am using are the ones for the Revell Shackleton as they are perfect for this version ( i didn't looked at the tailwheel ..)

They fit perfectly without adjustments..

The Revell Lancaster also has the taller astrodome which is needed to do NX611..

[71chally]

If it's true about the A340 tyres, they definitely wouldn't have been fitted in the AJ-G timeframe!

[PhantomBigStu]

2 minutes ago, 71chally said:

If it's true about the A340 tyres, they definitely wouldn't have been fitted in the AJ-G timeframe!

 

I'd heard its from a 300 which puts the time frame much ealier, and given the 330/340 was developped from the the 300 might even be the same anyway 

[71chally]

12 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

The tail wheel iself isn't lincon type, though the mounting may be, its an airbus 300 nosewheel, hence it looks slightly different, have to make do as won't find a 1/72 a300 nosewheel

It doesn't look different, it's a standard late Lancaster unit, as also used on the Lincoln.

 

The original tail wheel had a very small hub and fitted with a twin contact tyre (sometimes a standard tyre), the hub is 10 inch diameter. here http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/pages/lanc17.html

There was also a 12.5 inch hub design used during the war with the same tyre shape choices.

Later, a bigger hub (guessing 12.5 - 15 inch?) was used and fitted with a standard looking tyre.  The tyre obviously had a larger hub fitting diameter but was also of greater overall diameter and is noticeably bigger than the standard wartime one. here http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/awa01/501-600/awa525-Lancaster-Hollingsworth/43.jpg

Note the forks are slightly different aswel.

 

PA474 has had this larger type fitted from at least the early 1950s, and I would guess from when it was built.  Bigger size here, http://www.lancaster-archive.com/pic-lanc-test3.jpg

Due to corrosion issues, It's tail wheel was swapped over with that of Lincoln RF398 during the mid 1960s.

 

There may have been Airbus tyres fitted (references I have seen are for A340), but I've not seen them.

 

On a side issue from this, I believe that the Hasegawa tail wheel size is about right for a late style type, though way oversize for a wartime standard type.

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by 71chally

[fightersweep]

Hi James!

 

Thanks ever so much for the two comparison photos of the tail wheel. The differences are quite striking and obvious. I'm going to have to try and find a wheel with a similar hub in 1/72. Hopefully, it shouldn't be too difficult.

 

Best regards;

Steve

[71chally]

On 8/9/2017 at 5:09 PM, fightersweep said:

I'm going to have to try and find a wheel with a similar hub in 1/72. Hopefully, it shouldn't be too difficult.

Hi Steve, this company does a set of late mains and tail wheels,  https://www.scalemates.com/kits/966893-scale-resin-7314-avro-lancaster-wheels

Without them in front of me it's hard to tell, but they look the 12.5 inch hub with standard or twin contact tyres options, ie not the larger standard type, but you might be able to use a plasticard disc to represent the larger hub.

A better pic of PA474 tailnwheel here,

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by 71chally

[EricTheRed]

Try PJ Productions 721118 - RAF Pilots seated, 1/72...

https://www.pj-production.be/en/figures-1-72/35-raf-pilots-seated-in-ac-90-.html

 

I am using 1/32 version PJ Production figures for my BBMF 1/32 collection, got them via Hannants.

https://www.pj-production.be/en/figures-1-32-/193-321118-pilote-de-chasse-raf-moderne.html

[Admiral Puff]

Speaking of FE radiator intakes - how much deeper were the FE ones over the standards? It's clear from Trevor's pics above that they were deeper; does anyone have a dimension?

[71chally]

I don't unfortunately, but to my eye they look just a bit wider as well, especially where they curve at the top towards the spinner.  Be nice to see some definitive info on this aspect.

[Max Headroom]

Don't know if it helps or confuses, but my (failing) memory recalls a comment that Yorks used the FE radiator. Can't check pix right now but if someone can confirm then maybe the Grainger drawings for the York can be used (assuming that was picked up in the first place).

 

Trevor