Spookytooth Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Hi good folk of this forum. I hope to participate in the Flying boat/ Seaplane GB starting next month, and have been during a little home work (without touching the plastic with any tools) I have got the Italeri Sunderland MK 1 in 1/72 and I have some confusion over some of the "colour call outs " I have some little queries I would like to ask to clarify some paint colours. 1. Interior colour, the Italeri instructions call out for FS 34272 which equates Tamiya XF 4 Yellow Green. In the ref pics I have seen some back this up and others look either darker or lighter. 2. The wing tip lights, I always took it that British planes had Red and Green tip lights, the instructions call out for Red and Blue lights. Help there please. 3. Seat belts, the call out here is for Matt Black, I initially thought Khaki, but then thought that it was probably fitted out with civilian belts. Help the please. Hopefully the rest will drop into place. Yours Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham T Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Red to port, green to starboard (which is the international maritime standard also applied to aircraft). I think confusion sometimes arises as the green glass looks blue when not illuminated. Regarding colours I posted a similar query today regarding the Italeri Sunderland III! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookytooth Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 Sorry Graham, I was in a bit of a haste. But thanks for the tip light colours, I thought the same as you. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Sunderland interiors were painted in RAF Interior Grey-Green, for which I am not aware of any FS595B match (that system came in after most, if not all, of the Sunderlands had been painted and iSsued to service. The colour does tend to vary depending on supplier, means and method of application , weathering (you get the picture). Some areas, notably wardroom, galley and bomb room, were painted aluminium, so if you're modelling galley hatches and/or bomb doors open Grey-green is a non-runner here. Graham T's already covered wing tip navigation lights but do check: many British aircraft of the period used coloured bulbs under clear lenses and the Sunderland may be one such. As Graham said the lenses would appear very dark, the red of the port light would be well past Burgundy. I've an idea that seat straps of the time were somewhere between a pale linen and pale tan colour; IIRC blue seat belts weren't introduced until the jet age and the introduction of ejection seats. I hope this is of some help: I've an Italeri Sunderland I awaiting an appointment with glue and paint, but I'm not brave enough to enter the group build. Have a look on the walkaround pages on here, hopefully there are images of ML824 at Hendon (I know she's a GR. V but some things hadn't changed much from the Mk. I. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookytooth Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 Tanks Stever219, As for the gallery etc, I will not worry too much , as most of it will not be seen. I am having the bomb doors shut with the bomb rack showing, Saves on masking. And the doors shut to. There will be plenty of light in there but nothing really big enough to look through. Simon. PS Good luck with the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Simon, thanks again for plugging the Seawings site, it'll also come in handy (I hope) when my Mtchbox & Revell Stranraers eventually emerge. I've a sneaky feeling that the Coastal Command SIG has been resurrected: I haven't tried finding them yet but if they are around again they're probably worth a look too. I've just done a quick image trawl and it looks like Sunderlands had coloured nav light bulbs under clear covers: the exposed wing structure under the covers appears to be aluminium (probably painted as corrosion protection). All the best for your build, I'm off to play with a pair of Airfix Shackletons. Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Spookytooth said: Hi good folk of this forum. I hope to participate in the Flying boat/ Seaplane GB starting next month, and have been during a little home work (without touching the plastic with any tools) I have got the Italeri Sunderland MK 1 in 1/72 and I have some confusion over some of the "colour call outs " I have some little queries I would like to ask to clarify some paint colours. 1. Interior colour, the Italeri instructions call out for FS 34272 which equates Tamiya XF 4 Yellow Green. In the ref pics I have seen some back this up and others look either darker or lighter. 2. The wing tip lights, I always took it that British planes had Red and Green tip lights, the instructions call out for Red and Blue lights. Help there please. 3. Seat belts, the call out here is for Matt Black, I initially thought Khaki, but then thought that it was probably fitted out with civilian belts. Help the please. Hopefully the rest will drop into place. Yours Simon. Hi Simon, The colour call outs for Italeri should be ignored ( I have the Italeri kit) Interior colours: I'll post the same pic as for Grahams thread this shows the actual demarcation for the various colours (RAF Grey Green/ Silver /Black) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1cm5OcnREVjF0Znc/view?usp=sharing When it comes to colours note the different shades of green in this bow shot https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1YUlkRE5qMWVHY2c/view?usp=sharing Bow decking - note also that Italeri has an extra piece on the decking (Starboard side) that doesn't exist and anchor stowage (not on the floor as in Italeri's instructions) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1czFRRXhnUjRRNEU/view?usp=sharing Pilots platform is black as in flooring under it - Note on Mk I and early Mk II Sunderland's the pilots seating was "Parachute Seat Type (quoted straight from Mk I/Mk II M & E Sunderland manual) not the seat cushion type https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1eEhmUzFnZ3loaEk/view?usp=sharing Behind the pilots platform, flight deck flooring is Grey Green - Note the lower floor aft of Bow rear bulkhead is blue grey , not Grey Green https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1RjZ0cGNNS0liczA/view?usp=sharing Seat belts/harness is white as in this photo https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1TWdtN2kwNXgzOTg/view?usp=sharing Wing Tip Nav light covers are clear, not blue and green as in Italeri model https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1NTJBYUlnT2x3Mjg/view?usp=sharing 4 hours ago, Spookytooth said: Tanks Stever219, As for the gallery etc, I will not worry too much , as most of it will not be seen. I am having the bomb doors shut with the bomb rack showing, Saves on masking. And the doors shut to. There will be plenty of light in there but nothing really big enough to look through. Simon. PS Good luck with the build. Just an FYI (your model and all) Sunderland's never had the bomb racks out with doors closed. There is an umbilical cord that carries electrical power to the solenoids in the bomb rack, it would be cut/damaged by the closing doors (my Father maintained the electrical systems on the RNZAF Sunderland's - YES, I asked all these questions Too, of my father and other flying crew, so first hand knowledge), This is also verified by the M & E Sunderland manuals I have (Mk's I/II/III/V). Racks out doors open. Racks in Doors can be manually opened, but the tracks under the wings were covered as in this photo when not in use https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1bFNfdDJrVUNRTTg/view?usp=sharing The rack track strips were rolled back or forward to cover the tracks as in this photo https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1ZlpEd1FIRmp1ZDg/view?usp=sharing I know modellers like to show their "Beached" Sunderland's with bombs hanging from the racks, but in real life operationally, ordnance was removed from the flying boat before beaching, as was most the fuel that was in the tanks Hope that helps? Regards Alan Edited August 5, 2017 by LDSModeller edit a link 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Thanks Alan: I stand erected!😉 I shall update my notes forthwith From memory the Italeri anchor is more like something from Captain Pugwash's Black Pig rather than something useful to maritime airmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 23 minutes ago, stever219 said: Thanks Alan: I stand erected!😉 I shall update my notes forthwith From memory the Italeri anchor is more like something from Captain Pugwash's Black Pig rather than something useful to maritime airmen. Interestingly enough there is a chain that is called an "Anchor Chain" as in this Mooring Diagram, but not using an anchor perse https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1SUpXZVQ5T1I1eVE/view?usp=sharing Anchors were only ever used if away from ones operational base, where there was no "Buoy trot" to moor A good example was when RNZAF Sunderland MR5, NZ4111 struck a coral reef at Nukunono Lagoon, Tokelau Islands, the anchor was used to moor the flying boat until the aircraft could be pumped out and pulled ashore. NZ4111 Regards Alan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookytooth Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 Thank you very much for the above info Alan. This clarifies things a hell of a lot. At least this dumb nut knows what to do now. Again, thank you Alan . Simon (A happy bunny now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixII Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 On 04/08/2017 at 11:06 PM, stever219 said: Simon, thanks again for plugging the Seawings site, it'll also come in handy (I hope) when my Mtchbox & Revell Stranraers eventually emerge. I've a sneaky feeling that the Coastal Command SIG has been resurrected: I haven't tried finding them yet but if they are around again they're probably worth a look too. I've just done a quick image trawl and it looks like Sunderlands had coloured nav light bulbs under clear covers: the exposed wing structure under the covers appears to be aluminium (probably painted as corrosion protection). Steve. Hi Steve, slightly off topic.......... You are indeed correct, the Coastal Command SIG HAS been reformed, I'm deputy SIG lead, bottle washer, secretary, sweeper up...............! Any and all past members and ALL new members are welcome to join us. We have confirmed table space at this years SMW, PLEASE spread the word. Number of new members have joined us, some with promises of built models! If you were a member, the dedicated site is still running over at:- Unofficial Airfix Modellers' Forum • Index page If your not already registered, please get in touch with me directly via P.M. with your name and IPMS No. if applicable, It'll make things a little smoother! On a note regarding Sunderlands, the Mushroom Modelling publication Wings of Windermere is worth a look, having just read it, ALL parts of the fuselage were anodised, if these were then painted.................. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Hi Paul, After that last post on this thread I went trawling and found what I hope is the Coastal Command SIG site and signed up! I didn't go through the Unofficial Airfix Modellers' Forum, so I may now be in an inactive site. My main reference has been ML824 and certain parts of her have definitely been painted: I'm pretty sure that NZ4115 has been similarly treated. I know the risks inherent in using a restored airframe as a reference (the recent thread on this site concerning B-17 interior colours bears testament to that) but I have memories of my presently-inaccessible copy of "Sunderland at War" and a recent rummage of Seawings, that suggest an internal finish other than anodised aluminium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixII Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Hi Steve, First, ! Just having read the MMP book, it states that after each piece was finished, all were anodised, then fitted and painted where nessesary. This being applicable to Mk.IIIs built at Windermere, and later when transfered to a CRO facility, Mk.III repairs and Mk.III conversions to Mk.V. Worth mentioning ALL wings were built at Rochester and transported by road to Windermere, quite a few insurance claims for damaged wing tips! Daft thing was, there were jigs for building wings at Windermere, a case of 'just in case'?! Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 8 hours ago, PhoenixII said: Hi Steve, First, ! Just having read the MMP book, it states that after each piece was finished, all were anodised, then fitted and painted where nessesary. This being applicable to Mk.IIIs built at Windermere, and later when transfered to a CRO facility, Mk.III repairs and Mk.III conversions to Mk.V. Worth mentioning ALL wings were built at Rochester and transported by road to Windermere, quite a few insurance claims for damaged wing tips! Daft thing was, there were jigs for building wings at Windermere, a case of 'just in case'?! Paul Hi Paul, Allan King, the Author of Wings on Windermere ( I too have the book) is one of the very few people (other than those who flew/maintained them) whose opinion I respect on Sunderland's. Very knowledgeable and has a truck load of Sunderland Photos, and very happy to share his expertise - Re the anodising/painting, my father made the same comments to me during discussions we had on the RNZAF Sunderland's, he maintained while in 5 Squadron. Regards Alan On 8/8/2017 at 6:55 AM, stever219 said: Hi Paul, My main reference has been ML824 and certain parts of her have definitely been painted: I'm pretty sure that NZ4115 has been similarly treated. I know the risks inherent in using a restored airframe as a reference (the recent thread on this site concerning B-17 interior colours bears testament to that) but I have memories of my presently-inaccessible copy of "Sunderland at War" and a recent rummage of Seawings, that suggest an internal finish other than anodised aluminium. Hi Steve, Bear in mind, that NZ4115 was not a "Restored" Aircraft when presented to MOTAT here in Auckland in 1967. NZ4115 was taken straight from operational service, so was fully operational (right down to stove in galley) and in flying condition (though my dad told me the engines had been inhibited) What paint she was wearing at time of retirement was what she wore when going to MOTAT. Certainty over the years, she has had touch ups exterior wise, and the odd bit interior wise to stop corrosion, but she has still original paint as in these photos. Note the bow deck roof - original colours https://goo.gl/photos/mEnWcXfov5xhgv737 The pilots seating - Original colours https://goo.gl/photos/PP4cRvrGrpm7iAnz5 Upper hatch (Rear) over Mezzanine floor/Crew Ward room roof -original paint https://goo.gl/photos/FGp8u8G3ur27Jc9n9 When it came to painting, in areas where water (sea water especially) would be prevalent the grey green paint/primer was used as in these photos Drogue container/holder (galley) https://goo.gl/photos/AdPf86pEnube5QJs7 Bow decking and Bollard https://goo.gl/photos/9YGSMiaVsNAsqQbw7 And even the men's room............ https://goo.gl/photos/fQKXPVxinVFfcqPf9 From a personal perspective, I certainly recall on boarding Sunderland's (a number of times) moored in the Braby at Hobsonville, and going through the forward main hatch, the decking being green. Going up through the upper flight engineers hatch above the flight deck, the surrounds being green also. And to show how sturdy the Sunderland airframe was - note Natural metal skinning on this RNZAF Mk III, post WWII (one of four brand new Mk III Sunderland Transports received late 1944). https://goo.gl/photos/8HcgJqNpD6qdQSPY7 Regards Alan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Thanks Alan. '824 had two (at least) owners after her RAF service, firstly France's Aeronavale and then the Sunderland Preservation Trust (?) so may have been subject to some repainting by either or both. I suspect that little or no remedial work was undertaken by the RAFM when she was dismantled (thankfully not as drastically as IWM's example at Duxford which was sectioned, not overly neatly, just below upper deck level) and moved from Pembroke Dock to Hendon so NZ4115 may well still be closest to original spec. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookytooth Posted August 9, 2017 Author Share Posted August 9, 2017 After looking at the various pics posted here and else where I have decided to go with the flow. A Grey/Green interior with NATO Black cockpit and Air-frame Aluminium section around the middle section. As for the tip lights, I have half a mind to cut them out and replace with bits of clear plastic. The seats are different thing, whether there is enough meat on them to remove the cushion and create a well. We will see. Thanks for all your help. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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