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Question about possible foliage green PV-1: pic inside


28ZComeback

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zoom_13_Squadron_RAAF_Ventura_Gove_1944_I was wondering if any of the RAAF experts would care to comment on the color of this 13th Squadron PV-1 Ventura?  It appears to be foliage green of possibly overall olive drab. Any suggestions appreciated. (Somewhere I recall Ian Baker's suggestion that it was foliage green after an overhaul, but cannot lay my hands on the ancient email).  Best wishes.

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It IS overall Foliage Green. 

 

RAAF Camouflage instructions issued Mid 1944 called for general reconnaissance aircraft (which the Venturas fell under) to be painted overall Foliage Green. Due to the amount of work involved in repainting them (plus the fact that the original US Navy scheme was more suited to the over water missions that they were conducting) very few were ever repainted.

 

A59-89 is the only one known to have served with 13 Sqn in this scheme. It was repainted when it had earlier served with 1 APU at Laverton (seen in AWM photo No VIC0101 when with them) and later passed to 13 Sqn in June 1945.

 

About a dozen PV-1s surplus to the requirements of 13 Sqn were converted to transports to serve with RAAF Comm (Communication) Units and there are photos in the AWM collection of several of these in overall Foliage Green also.

 
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https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C201734?search 

 

I found yet another photo showing A59-82? on the AWM website. It appears to be in foliage green. Website says it was overhauled and Lodestar seats were installed. Could it be that more than one PV-1 was painted foliage green?  Not clear what the number is....also A59-4 may also be a green Squadron 13 Ventura. Thanks for any comments.

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C201734?search 

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21 minutes ago, 28ZComeback said:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C201734?search 

 

I found yet another photo showing A59-82? on the AWM website. It appears to be in foliage green. Website says it was overhauled and Lodestar seats were installed. Could it be that more than one PV-1 was painted foliage green?  Not clear what the number is....also A59-4 may also be a green Squadron 13 Ventura. Thanks for any comments.

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C201734?search 

If you click on the ADF link and look at the photo collection, there are (by my count) at least 4-5 Ventura's in Foliage Green.

 

ADF Ventura Photos

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A59-82 was on strength with 11 Communications Unit in June 45 so it is not surprising to be in overall foliage green as that was the specified camouflaged for CU aircraft, as it was for Ventura's in general post 26 May 1944. Unlike operational squadrons though, the Communications Units seems to have refinished their aircraft in accordance with Aircraft General Instructions reasonably quickly, so that you find overall Foliage Green Catalinas, Sunderlands, Mariners and Walrus's in transport, communications and ASR units despite them all counter intuitively being seaplanes or flying boats.

 

A59-4 was an RB-34 (ex US Army and is more likely to have been in either RAF camouflage or OD over neutral grey, without clear sign of demarcation, I think the later is most likely) 

 

With respect to the photos on ADF Serials, I suspect some of the aircraft you are counting as being in overall foliage green are actually RB-34s per 4 above (e.g. 6 and 12) or PV-1 A59-52 which was also on strength with 11CU at the time of the photo so also probably having been repainted overall foliage green when converted to a transport.

Edited by Biggles81
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To my eye A59-12 certainly appeares to be a PV.1 rather than a B-34 if I read you correctly. Solid nose & martin turret. Having said that I see it listed as a RB-34 in the list of Serials & History.  Maybe had a nose job at some point, the Martin turret would be correct for the -34 anyway, I was thinking of the Ventura Mk Is as operated by 12 wing RAF.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
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59 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

To my eye A59-12 certainly appeares to be a PV.1 rather than a B-34 if I read you correctly. Solid nose & martin turret. Having said that I see it listed as a RB-34 in the list of Serials & History.  Maybe had a nose job at some point, the Martin turret would be correct for the -34 anyway, I was thinking of the Ventura Mk Is as operated by 12 wing RAF.

Steve.

Per RAAF Ventura Instruction No 7 Ammendment 5 - "Serial Numbers A59-1 to 49 are allotted to the B34 model, A59-50 onwards being allotted for the PV1 model" 

 

Both are also identified in the document as being fitted with the Martin Turret with 2 .50 cal machine guns. Only RB-34s 1-20 were actually delivered despite this allocation of serial blocks.

 

In the photo of 12 on ADF Serials you can see the Australian/British style ASV radar fit on the rear fuselage. Again Ventura instruction 7 highlights the B34 model was fitted with "RAAF Type ASV" whilst the PV-1 was fitted with "USA radar"

Edited by Biggles81
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Thanks for that info, its appreciated. I already have  Minicraft Ventura, PV.1 & B-34s in stock to do RAF & RNZAF versions, a RAAF one in Foliage green would look pretty good, especially -12 though its still looking like its had a nose transplant to me, I'm thinking about what would be the best kit for her?

Steve.

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Looking into A59-12 further, I am not convinced that it is still on strength of 13Sqn in the photo on the ADF Serials Ventura Gallery. I posit that it depicts the aircraft once transferred to 2 Aircraft Park (Bankstown) for duties as an escort aircraft with 2AP Ferry Flight. In this case probably escorting fighters on ferry flights to Townsville. The Ventura General Technical File states that upon transfer to 2AP, the ASV system is to be removed but the wing Yagi and fuselage radar antennas be retained which explains their presence. Of note it is not wearing 13 Squadron codes either and according to the aircraft record card was only on strength with 13 Sqn from 3 March 1944 until transferred to 2AD on 4 May 1944 having been allotted to 2AD on 17 April 1944 before finally being allotted to 2AP on 21 August 1944. With this change of role in mind it is also quite possible it was refinished overall foliage green when relegated to 2nd line duties as probably depicted in this photo.

 

Unfortunately there is no mention of it having the nose modified but I agree it looks to lack the transparencies of the RB-34 and they could have been a) painted over or replaced with metal skinning or b.) had a PV-1 nose fitted. Maybe others know more?

 

As for the best kit, probably start with the Ventura 1 and replace the turret. When Minicraft made the kit they used the same turret base on the fuselage parts for all boxings and then bodged a Boulton Paul turret for the Ventura I boxing, so the kit is more correct with a Martin turret anyway than using the compromised Boulton Paul one.

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I agree with Biggles.

 

A59-12 served with No. 13 Sqn very briefly, before it was sent to No. 2 AD  for a report on its condition. Then, as Biggles states, it went to No. 2 Aircraft Park for ferry escort duties in August 1944. When No. 2 Aircraft Depot took over those duties it was transferred to their Ferry Flight in December 1944.

 

In addition to the mods mentioned by Biggles, I believe that it was also fitted with VHF, so it could communicate with the Spitfires and Kittyhawks it was required to escort on the flights north. Note that it was not modified to full transport configuration, (the turret was retained for one thing), just the mods to suit it for its escort role. The Ventura was preferred because it could get along at a fair clip, and with its HF and VHF fit was able to communicate with ground stations and the fighters it was escorting. No. 1 AD followed a slightly different path having a Spitfire fitted with HF equipment.

 

The photo was taken in 1945. Note the late, (post mid 1944), style roundels. This is consistent with it having been repainted, and brought into line with the orders in place at that time, when modified in July/August 1944.

 

As to the nose, I remain to be convinced that it is 'solid'. The quality of the photo doesn't help. It may be glazed, or it may have been painted over. Unless the original had been severely damaged in an accident, and there is no record of such an event, would the work have been undertaken to replace it for no apparent gain, and not take off the turret as well?

 

Peter

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Very much on the same sheet of music Peter.

 

As you say A59-12 was fitted with VHF in October 44 whilst still with 2AP Ferry Flight before being passed on to 2AD FF in December.

 

To that end to address the original question, in retrospect I believe the photo A59-6 on ADF Serials dates from its service with 2AP FF or 2AD FF post mid 1944 and that it too is in overall foliage green. It has all the same attributes as 12, and had the same radar and VHF mods for its ferry role. 

 

Overall another fascinating discussion that has kept me occupied at work for a day or two.

Edited by Biggles81
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