Acrylic versions of RAF AM Sky Blue, Sky Blue BS381 and Eau De Nil?

[PaulR]

Evening all,

I am starting to work my way through my Xtradecal Battle of Britain spitfire decal sheets, and have been thrown slightly by the need for the two sky blues (the lighter AM Sky Blue and the darker bs381 version) and Eau de Nil. I use acrylics, and to the best of my knowledge no one does acrylic versions of these colours, although WEM does enamel versions.

My question is this. Does anyone have any suggestions to decent equivalents in acrylics, like Tamiya or Lifecolour for instance, or 'equivalent' colour references such as FS references. Before anyone says it, I know FS are US colours and don't directly translate across, but I'm looking for the closest I can get. I can cope with simple mixes, but nothing too complex!

For example, from what I can gather, RLM65 type shades (or XF23 in Tamiya speak) are reasonably 'there' for the AM Sky Blue (especially when some of these were handmixed at unit level), so that's a start there; however, the interweb has so far failed to throw up anything similar for Skyblue BS381 or Eau de Nil.

If anyone had any suggestions I would welcome them!

Kind regards, Paul 

[Greenshirt]

How pedantic do you want to be?  I quite prefer some specific proper colors for my RAF types, but freely delve into the interpretive realms when the applied paint description doesn't match a MAP specific color. 

 

For example, Eau de Nil to my eye is a strong green variation of Sky. I found a hobby color at my local Michael's called "Celery" that looks perfect, but it's both an enamel and here in the US...to match that same color in say Tamiya I'd start with XF-21 Sky and add drops of X-15 Light Green until it "looked right". 

 

Sticking with Tamiya, for AM Sky Blue I'd rather start with White and add XF-23 until it had that very light blue shade. 

 

I'm not very familiar with BS381 but a quick search online indicates it looks quite a lot like RLM65.  If you like XF-23 for an RLM65, then go with that. I would add a few drops of white as my impression looking online is it's only a bit darker than AM Sky Blue and possibly with some green in it.  Add a drop is Sky?

 

You also didn't say which acrylics you have access to, but you did mention Tamiya and that's my preference...hence my responses. 

[JackG]

You could try Vallejo Model Air, they might have something you want in the acrylic range.   Unfortunately I don't have original paint chips to compare them to, nor have I come across any yea or ney to their compatible closeness.   Maybe now that I have posted this, someone will come forward?   I do know this is their second rendition and have changed some formulas.   They are available in sets, but can be purchased individually too.

http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/en_US/raf-colors-special--battle-of-britain/family/17/165

 

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, PaulR said:

Evening all,

I am starting to work my way through my Xtradecal Battle of Britain spitfire decal sheets, and have been thrown slightly by the need for the two sky blues (the lighter AM Sky Blue and the darker bs381 version) and Eau de Nil. I use acrylics, and to the best of my knowledge no one does acrylic versions of these colours, although WEM does enamel versions.

My question is this. Does anyone have any suggestions to decent equivalents in acrylics, like Tamiya or Lifecolour for instance, or 'equivalent' colour references such as FS references. Before anyone says it, I know FS are US colours and don't directly translate across, but I'm looking for the closest I can get. I can cope with simple mixes, but nothing too complex!

For example, from what I can gather, RLM65 type shades (or XF23 in Tamiya speak) are reasonably 'there' for the AM Sky Blue (especially when some of these were handmixed at unit level), so that's a start there; however, the interweb has so far failed to throw up anything similar for Skyblue BS381 or Eau de Nil.

If anyone had any suggestions I would welcome them!

Kind regards, Paul 

 

I wouldn't trust Xtradecals colour call outs.    This has come up before,   and Xtradeals just stuck some of the colours that Paul Lucas research on the sheet as far as I can see.

It should be noted that Lucas research said that the relics he examined 'looked like' or 'were close too'

A while back i collated the main parts of this here

buut since links don't always get read....

 

On 27/7/2015 at 22:12, Beard said:

'Possibly' is good enough for me. Occam's Razor comes in to play here.

Now all I have to do is get my hands on some Colourcoats in the model shop desert in which I live. Alternatively, I'll be taking my copy of British Aviation Colours to my local Humbrol stockist on my day off.

Hi Simon

It's a complex subject, with many variables.

One point, what are the serials?

this is sheet in question

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X48145

41 Sq plane.

No serial known. Tony O Toole helped with some of these sheets and he may be able to shed more light on this.

EDIT - listed on Asisbis as N3126

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/MkI-RAF-41Sqn-EB-L-Shipman.html

pic

Looking at the Xtradecal instructions there is note of the panel under the nose.

If this is the reference photo I'd suggest this is more likely still with the Black/White undersurface scheme still, note the very light colour of gear leg and side of radiator.

Also of note is the visible repainting of the fuselage roundel back to 35 inch, note plane in background has an oversize roundel from the addition of an equal width ring to the existing roundel.

Regarding Lucas, here's the relevant bit from "Britain Alone" and is what the various other paint matches are based upon.

But, this thread covers a lot of the main points raised over the use other paints instead or Sky, or local mixes.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234966713-spitfire-mk1-with-extra-dark-sea-grey-belly/

But here's the edited version. Much of this is about Eau De Nil, another colour identified above.

On 3/9/2014 at 03:29, Troy Smith said:

I don't have the Lucas book to hand, but IIRC the main evidence was from wreck parts, matched to colour chips, by eye, unfortunately no photos of this are shown. I con't remember what the colours were matched to, possibly FS595?

Also, we are dealing with parts from mostly buried wrecks, and soil chemistry and just ageing of the paint can change apparent colour, for example paint binders can yellow with age, causing the colour to shift and darken in appearance.

In the case of Sky paint, that would cause a darkening and greening of the apparent colour.

It is possible to analyse the paint to find out the pigments and binders etc, but a visual comparison with paint chips is of limited use.

The above is trying to put simply what Nick Millman has written about, at length, here and on his blogs, and any errors in the above are mine, not his!

I mention Nick as he is a very through and careful researcher on the subject of paint and colour

Varitions in the Sky have been noted since the time of introuduction, This is discussed in the Ducimus Camouflage and Markings series, in particular in the Spitfire volume, which was written in about 1970, but makes many valuable points as reasons for variations.

What has happened since the Lucas book is that profiles in the book have had a variety of underside colours given to them , Eau De Nil, Sky Grey, Sky Blue, and this has lodged in modeller and decal manufacturers brains as a 'fact'.

That said the use of Sky Blue instead of Sky seems to be more widespread than was thought when the Ducimus was published. There have been thread on this here.

Without professional analysis of the wreck parts, and that would only tell you what those specific aircraft were painted in, you are into the realm of a 'best guess'

The 'best guess' can be improved upon by finding out when the plane entered service and from photos of non-standard underside demarcations, eg as seen on some 85 sq and 17 Sq Hurricanes in June 1940, implying an infield repaint, for an example of elimination of unlikely airframes, see the quoted Spitfires above.

From a modeller's point, it's only really aircraft that are in this 'window' that are candidates for having non-standard underside colours. They certainly make for more visually appealing models.

I'm not claiming any special knowledge of the subject, more adding a basic summary for the less obsessed who may be intrigued by the thread title, and confused by some of the comments.

On 3/9/2014 at 15:52, Graham Boak said:

There was one interesting (at least to me) point within Paul Lucas's book. The three undersides identified from wreck sites as being Eau de Nil came from the units that were at Linton-on-Ouse and one other Humberside base (Kirton-in-Lindsay?) when the order came through. To me, this suggests a very local use of whatever colour it was, whereas Paul seems to have extrapolated this to a wider range of units coming from different parts of the UK. In this he could be said to have been supported by MJF Bowyer, based on personal observation at the time by his acquaintances and himself, that Sky as in use in 1940 was distinctly greener than that seen later in the war.

I entirely agree that Eau-de-Nil was in fairly wide use prewar, within the RAF and indeed domestically. But the paint applied to aircraft will have come from the limited range of colours available to the correct DTD specification, and those did not (to my knowledge) include Eau-de-Nil. I have wondered if it was the identity of the lighter green sometimes spoken of as in use for some aircraft interiors.

In his excellent book, Paul does pretty thoroughly discuss the problems of supplying Sky at this time, and the potential solutions/problems. Nick Millman has also contributed to the subject, elsewhere on this site.

On 3/9/2014 at 16:06, John said:

The issue of No16 EdN and No1 Sky Blue to the correct DTD standard for application to both fabric and metal exterior surfaces is a point I have raised many times. If EdN *did* exist in this form it was most likely a civillian order for the colour.

I don't have my copy of Lucas immediately to hand but I do recall that there are photos (inside one of the covers?) of researchers holding a FS595 fandeck against their chosen specimen parts, rather than a copy of the chips from BS381(1930).

I’m also fairly certain that PL didn’t say that these colours *were* EdN and 1 Sky Blue, just that they looked like them. The certainty has been applied retrospectively by others.

Sky is essentially white with a couple of strong pigments added to get the required final colour. Varying the proportions of these pigments even slightly can have a distinct effect on the final observed colour. I've long been of the opinion that this is a more likely source of the variations observed in 1941 (and indeed later) than the use of non-standard colours.

For the record I doubt the widespread use of Air Ministry Sky Blue for the same reason.

John

On 4/9/2014 at 16:22, Nick Millman said:

I agree and FWIW (I've mentioned it before) I've recreated colours close to both BSi standard colours using similar pigments to the white, yellow and blue paints that would have been held in stores. The use of yellow instead of yellow ochre makes a significant difference to the resultant hue and recreates the stronger blue-green appearance.

The "old" cheap recipe for Eau de Nil, in use as late as 1929, was Zinc Oxide (white) and Pale Chrome Green. The zinc oxide has a rather poor tinting strength and a tendency towards yellow or creamish. The chrome green is interesting because it is made from chrome yellow and Prussian blue pigments. The chrome yellow decomposes the blue pigment over time making the appearance browner, exacerbated by yellowing of the binder. On the Lucas examples genuine Eau de Nil would have shifted towards more yellowish. But they looked to me like typical "sky blue" paints where age darkening and yellowing of the binder had made them look more turquoise or greenish than they probably were originally.

 

I thought this the case when I looked at the chip in the 1930 standard for BS 381 # 1 Sky Blue but very usefully the original book includes a sample of the clear celluloid used for the swatches so the extent of browning can be gauged reasonably accurately. The original colour was undoubtedly more turquoise (greenish) than the colour one usually associates with sky blue but the complication is that clearer sky blues and blue-greys shift towards a similar appearance with the yellowing of their binders. This is why the French Gris Bleu Clair is now thought by some to have had a more blue-green appearance than it really did, because they are assessing it from extant but aged paint surfaces. The shifts can occur without the surface appearing in any way degraded, even retaining its gloss, which can be misleading because the assumption is that the paint is "as good as new".

 

Nick

 

The Lucas book does list where the parts are, which is several small museums in Sussex and Kent, which are listed but no photos, and no history of the where the parts are from.

I'd go round these places if I had a car, I'm not dedicated to try to get to them by public transport, but as the research was done maybe 15 years ago the paint may shifted more anyway.

If you could get actual samples you could analyse them, and that would yield more information, but would you even be able to get samples?

I would suggest that aircraft built after the introduction of Sky in June 1940 are probably going to have the specified paint as factories would get the right paint as a priority?

and in the case of Spitfires this can be pinned down if you have a serial.

see http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

From this I'd suggest all the Castle Bromwich and the Supermarine somewhere on this page

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p010.html are likely to have factory applied Sky.

Unfortunately there is not similar page of Hurricane production.

 

 

and this has in time morphed into the colours being such and such,   and the quality of reaserch on some of the older Xtradecals sheets was cobblers

Don't believe me?

Quote

If you have a serial number, you could at least have chance to know if it was painted at the factory in sky, or repainted at MU or unit level when 'sky' was introduced on 6th june 1940.

I doubt Xtradecal really know, and 'sky grey' is a guess. What scheme you are planning might get you a better answer, or even better a photo.

But, from what I have read about the subject, I doubt a 'sky grey' but odd pale blues and pale green's are quite possible.

There are threads here which talk about the actual pigments in sky, and the possible variations from unit level mixing.....

right, this got me curious, so I looked up the Xtradecal sheet, and from the instructions you want to VY-R, P2923?

Well, the Xtradecal instructions for this are really not very good. Why?

This plane is a rarity from the era in as much as there are a series of Life pics of it, show both sides and a taxiying frontal shot.

It's certainly an infield repaint, and the instruction totally fail to show the high demarcation line on the nose, and the wavy leading edge on the wings. Don't trust a profile with a photo is my motto!

It shows the spinner as 'black with light green bands' ...where the got that from is anybody guess. More likely is red with yellow or white, as the spinner most closely resembles the fin flash in greyscale. But it's not black! [Edit, I think white stripes are most likely, as there is yellow visible in the photos, and the stripes are lighter in tone]

as seen here

RAF FIGHTER COMMAND 1940. © IWM (HU 104510)IWM Non Commercial Licence

 

the other side. Note high 'sky' line on rear fusleage and carry over onto base of rudder.

THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN. © IWM (HU 54416)IWM Non Commercial Licence

 

and from the front, clearly showing the wavy leading edge. Also, just noticed, the similarity of tone of the spinner to the doped gun ports.

FWIW I'd  say the spinner is red with white stripes. (not black with green!!!!)

RAF FIGHTER COMMAND 1940. © IWM (HU 104493)IWM Non Commercial Licence

 

There is also a shot in flight, as well as 6-8 other shots of this plane, look on the IWM site for more.

EDIT

plane in fight in linked thread [doh], so here's the pic

Coloured spinners? why? as at the time of the pics , taken at Castle Camps in july 1940, 85 Sq was quite possibly using spinner painted in flight colours, there is a pic of a pilots with a plane with what looks to be yellow,

and also of Townsend plane with looks to be a white spinner [as he was C/O I guess]

85 sq seemed to be media darlings, and there are are 5 separate photo sets from 1940 ish about [France, phoney war, many 1940, Castle camps July 1940, October 1940 and as nightfighters winter 1940/41]

see here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/

Note this [page has links to other Hurricane threads....like that your interior framework and wheels wells should be aluminium paint...

I hope this helps. 

 

I did chat to someone in the Aviation Bookshop in Tunbridge Wells last year, he said he gone wreck digging, and had dug up an early Hurricane P**** wreck, and said the underside paint was nearly turquoise,  compared to the standard sky, he pointed to different colours on the stack of kit boxes we were looking at.

But, bear in mind Nick Millmans comments about colour shift in old paint.

 

Anyway, have  a read, but the short is this,  Xtradecal don't know.

If you want to vary the underside colours, bear in mind the hard information you might really want doesn't exist.   

an in field early 'sky' repaint is a likely to be a home mix as an official paint, so you can use whatever you fancy in the ballpark...

 

HTH

T

 

 

 

[politicni komisar]

I have all three of the WEM I have samples made

 

Photo makes a little deviation, but it's a sample .

 

P.k

[PhantomBigStu]

Eau de nil is a very easy colour to mix, just take a pod of your normal sky type s and add some dark green. I mixed mine by taking a pot humbrol 90, and adding one of throse little pots of 30 that come with airfix starter sets. 

[stevehnz]

A handy acrylic colour to use as a start point for some of these is Vallejo Model Colour 70885 pastel green. A little too deep a colour for RAF Sky type S but easy to lighten a bit or add a bit of darker green for Eau de Nil. Vallejo Model Colour range very likely has a shade which would be close to Sky Blue or able to be easily modified. It is a very versatile range for arylic users.

Steve.

[303sqn]

Eau de Nil has been a popular colour for centuries, Regency, Art Nouveau, Art Deco and so on. So many companies will have a version of  Eau de Nil in their catalogues. Vallejo  Model Air 71.009 is described as Duck Egg Green (Eau de Nil) but may not be identical to the BS381 standard.

[lasermonkey]

Paul Lucas came up with some Humbrol mixes for the aforementioned colours. I wonder whether you could get close enough by using the nearest equivalent colours from other manufacturers?

 If I can find the Scale Aircraft Modelling issues that have these mixes, I'll post them later. I know that I have posted these mixes previously, but that was some time ago, and I suspect that Google will not be your friend in this instance.

 Cheers,

Mark.

[lasermonkey]

Ok, back quicker than I expected!

Lucas's mixes are as follows:

Sky Blue No.1: 43 parts No.65 Aircraft Blue, 6 parts No.89 Middle Blue, 4 parts No.131 Satin Green and 9 parts white.

 

MAP Sky Blue: 35 parts white and 1 part No.25 Blue.

 

Eau de Nil No.16: 3 parts white, 1 parts No. 120 Light Green and 1 part No.38 Lime Green.

 

 I used these mixes before the Colourcoats paints became available and they are quite similar, if maybe a little too saturated in comparison.

 

Hopefully this will be of some help.

Best regards,

Mark.

[Mr T]

I finished a Hurricane not so long ago in an 'Eau de Nil' shade and used a Citadel colour from Games Workshops range called 'Skarsnik Green' that I added to some white and came out a very good match to the Colourcoats paint. It airbrushed well as well. We will never know what colours were really used and in this case I was prepared to use what I thought it might have been based on what I had read.