Intruder503 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) EDIT: Thanks to the chaps below, I have gathered quite a bit of necessary information I need. However, I am in need of some specifics. I intend to build an Avenger in VT-11 markings. Based on some research and plain deduction, the squadron flew the TBF-1C from Henderson Field in 1943-44. In September of 1944 until February 1945, they flew off the USS Hornet (most likely in TBM-3s). If I can only build a "representative" A/C, then so be it. If anybody has any info they can share or point me in the direction, I would greatly appreciate it! Hello markings experts! I have a question. I've been doing some research for a future build and need some advice. Did all the aircraft from a particular US Navy carrier group bear the same markings? I've seen aircraft from air group 2 had a white circle while operating from the Hornet. Later when air group 11 operated from Hornet, they had large check patterns on the tails. If if my theory is correct, then all squadrons bore the same tail markings in WWII (unlike today's groups which use unique squadron markings). I hope this this makes sense Edited July 21, 2017 by Intruder503 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) Intruder ... i just finished a ww2 wildcat build and during my research there were photo's of late war FM-2's in the Overall DSB colors. The pictures showed different markings on the same carrier. However i believe the Naval Directive that changed that came in late 1945 or early 1946. I have a book that has some charts around here that show different groups and i believe there individual markings. Now im just noticing you're asking about ww2. I have a diagram that shows markings from Jan. 27-July 27 1945. That book pertains to USN Markings and aircraft from 1946-1959 if my memory serves me correct. Again im not looking at right now. And unfortunately im unable to upload photo's as of right now. But if you want i will look at the book tomorrow ( its close to midnight here). If you are interested let me know. And i can try and send you photos via email or photocopies through snailmail. Dennis Edited July 19, 2017 by Corsairfoxfouruncle Additional info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intruder503 Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 Thanks, Dennis. I appreciate any help you can give. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I think the white dot was the first attempt at ID of an air group. The geometric design was the official reaction to it. I think they were called G Markings. I have a slim volume in the cave. If I get a chance this evening I'll take a look.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_air_wing#Origins 8 hours ago, Intruder503 said: Hello markings experts! I have a question. I've been doing some research for a future build and need some advice. Did all the aircraft from a particular US Navy carrier group bear the same markings? I've seen aircraft from air group 2 had a white circle while operating from the Hornet. Later when air group 11 operated from Hornet, they had large check patterns on the tails. If if my theory is correct, then all squadrons bore the same tail markings in WWII (unlike today's groups which use unique squadron markings). I hope this this makes sense seen this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_air_wing#Origins Quote The first Carrier Air Groups (as they were then called) were activated in 1937. From July 1937 to mid-1942, Carrier Air Groups were permanently assigned to and identified by their parent aircraft carrier, and group squadrons were numbered according to the carrier's hull number. For example, the Enterprise Air Group, assigned to USS Enterprise (CV-6), were all numbered "6": Fighting Squadron (VF) 6, Bombing Squadron (VB) 6, etc.[1] From 1942, numerical designation of air groups began, the first being Carrier Air Group 9 (CVG-9), established on 1 March 1942.[2] For a while, they were given unique numbers according to their assigned carriers' hull number (i.e., the Enterprise Air Group became CAG-6).[3] This numbering scheme was also soon scrapped as carrier groups (now abbreviated CVGs) frequently moved from carrier to carrier. At this point, the carrier groups simply retained their number designation regardless of the carrier assigned. The first formal system for air group identification (Visual Identification System for Naval Aircraft) was established in January 1945. This consisted of geometric symbols that identified the parent carrier, not the air group. As there were just too many carriers and the symbols were hard to remember or to describe over the radio, a single or double letter system was introduced in July 1945. The letters, however, still identified the carrier, not the air group. The following identifications are known: Not sure if this answers your question, There was a great site with lots of information on the markings, but not finding it right now. PS this is the site I was thinking of http://www.pmcn.de/English/USN Markings III/USN Markings III.htm note there are several pages. Edited July 19, 2017 by Troy Smith add details and links 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intruder503 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 Thank you so much for the help, gents! @Corsairfoxfouruncle I knew that George Gay went to VT-11 which is why I'm surprised there aren't more photos of their aircraft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intruder503 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 @Troy Smith lots of great info there! I had no idea the Navy was so strict when it came to non-regulation markings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I have all 3 of the squadron/signal "Navy Air Colors" (It is American English!). Once you have a clearer idea of what you want let me know and I'll have a look to see what these books say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intruder503 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 3 hours ago, iainpeden said: I have all 3 of the squadron/signal "Navy Air Colors" (It is American English!). Once you have a clearer idea of what you want let me know and I'll have a look to see what these books say. Basically I'm trying to determine markings for VT-11 when they were based at Henderson Feild and when they flew off USS Hornet. Pictures are VERY few and far between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 have you tried Hyperscale Plane Talking? You need to join to post, but they have a large US based membership and I would say a better place for specific US related questions. There are a fair few US members here as well, but I think more there. Here we do have @Dana Bell , whose been researching US colors for 40 or more years,(if you are interested in the F4U-1 Corsair his recent books are essential) and @Tailspin Turtle aka Tommy Thomason, who does a very good blog on USN aircraft, http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/ I would also use 'edit and then 'full edit' to change this thread heading something like "markings for VT-11 at Henderson Field and on USS Hornet." and include the date/type in question, because as a general rule here (and there) specific question get better answers, and a clear thread heading is the first thing you see. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intruder503 Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 8 hours ago, Troy Smith said: have you tried Hyperscale Plane Talking? You need to join to post, but they have a large US based membership and I would say a better place for specific US related questions. There are a fair few US members here as well, but I think more there. Here we do have @Dana Bell , whose been researching US colors for 40 or more years,(if you are interested in the F4U-1 Corsair his recent books are essential) and @Tailspin Turtle aka Tommy Thomason, who does a very good blog on USN aircraft, http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/ I would also use 'edit and then 'full edit' to change this thread heading something like "markings for VT-11 at Henderson Field and on USS Hornet." and include the date/type in question, because as a general rule here (and there) specific question get better answers, and a clear thread heading is the first thing you see. HTH Edited as recommended. I have browsed through there a few times but never looked for anything specific. I shall go over there with a plan of attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TBM_VT-11_CamRanhBay_1945.jpg Probably TBM-1C per Carrier Operations in WW II by J D Brown and Leyte June 1944 - January 1945 by Samuel Eliot Morison Also see http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/0212az.jpg and http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021265.jpg from here http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/12.htm 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intruder503 Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 Thanks Turtle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 All I have found is a copy of the carrier symbol chart carried by Ensign Stan Brown of VT-27 on USS Independance in 1945. The carrier markings for the Hornet are shown as the fin being quartered white and blue with the white being the upper left and lower right quadrants with the white a/c number in the blue lower left area. Wing tip markings are hard to describe but I'll try; 2 white squares, one of which is at the wingtip end of the aerolon (I know that spelling isn't right but can't work it out) the other square is joined to the first one at the point at 10 o'clock as you look down on the wing. both are quare on to the front of the wing/airflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, iainpeden said: All I have found is a copy of the carrier symbol chart carried by Ensign Stan Brown of VT-27 on USS Independance in 1945. The carrier markings for the Hornet are shown as the fin being quartered white and blue with the white being the upper left and lower right quadrants with the white a/c number in the blue lower left area. Wing tip markings are hard to describe but I'll try; 2 white squares, one of which is at the wingtip end of the aerolon (I know that spelling isn't right but can't work it out) the other square is joined to the first one at the point at 10 o'clock as you look down on the wing. both are quare on to the front of the wing/airflow. good description, pic maybe easier from page I linked above http://www.pmcn.de/English/USN Markings III/USN Markings III.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Much easier!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 20 hours ago, iainpeden said: All I have found is a copy of the carrier symbol chart carried by Ensign Stan Brown of VT-27 on USS Independance in 1945. The carrier markings for the Hornet are shown as the fin being quartered white and blue with the white being the upper left and lower right quadrants with the white a/c number in the blue lower left area. Wing tip markings are hard to describe but I'll try; 2 white squares, one of which is at the wingtip end of the aerolon (I know that spelling isn't right but can't work it out) the other square is joined to the first one at the point at 10 o'clock as you look down on the wing. both are quare on to the front of the wing/airflow. I'm pretty sure that those markings were introduced after Air Group 11 was replaced by Air Group 27. What's interesting is that the "dot" marking on vertical fin of the Air Group 11's airplanes when it was on Hornet were apparently the same as its predecessor on Hornet, maybe a larger diameter, meaning it was a Hornet air group identifier like the later geometric markings. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Chris, In addition to what the other posters have supplied for late-war VT-11 Avenger markings, I was able to find a couple of photos of VT-11 TBF's captioned as being taken on Henderson Field. I have posted a link to the photos below. Among the many photos is one that is a 3-4 front photo of a TBF being loaded from a bomb trolley; the other is a photo of the RH center fuselage with the three aircrew standing in front of it. Unfortunately, neither photo shows codes or squadron designators....weren't there any photographers in WW2 that were also model builders? Best I could come up with- sorry. Maybe a search for a VT-11 website might be helpful? Mike https://www.google.com/search?q=TBF-1+VT-11+Henderson+Field&tbm=isch&imgil=7ZvbTKKdKEu9AM%3A%3B1YDdpCa69HDb7M%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.pinterest.com%252Fpin%252F419327415289866731%252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=7ZvbTKKdKEu9AM%3A%2C1YDdpCa69HDb7M%2C_&usg=__ZxVsYZ7d2WNcpf5lbI41pjNeqLU%3D&biw=1280&bih=654&ved=0ahUKEwjmy_PY45_VAhUGslQKHY0CDQUQyjcISQ&ei=rch0WabBLIbk0gKNhbQo#imgrc=7ZvbTKKdKEu9AM:&spf=1500825868649 Also, a link to a photo of George Gay and his VT-11 TBF taken at Henderson Field in 1943! http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=23513 Here's a video clip of Henderson Field Avengers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHbJRoT7hfY 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intruder503 Posted July 23, 2017 Author Share Posted July 23, 2017 The video is absolutely perfect! I never even thought to search youtube. Thanks again fellows!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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