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Antb

Spitfire MK Vb S-V EP436- any information out there?

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Hi guys, 

 

My next project is going to be the Airfix 1/24 Spitfire Vb and as I'm not keen on the box marking options I've invested in a set of Montex masks in preparation for my finally getting an airbrush. 

 

The options for these masks are S-V EP436 of 1435 squadron in Malta in October 1942 in extra dark sea grey with sky undersides. The other is IR-G AB502 Tunisia 1943 in the standard desert scheme. 

 

Ive tried to find some details online in respect of the former aircraft and it's history etc and have found one picture of the aircraft on the ground with the engine panels removed, which is nice. I can't find anything else. 

 

However, does anyone have any information in respect of this particular aircraft to help me with the build? 

 

Id be grateful for any help. 

 

Thanks in advance 

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What sort of information is it that you're looking for?

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2 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

What sort of information is it that you're looking for?

 

Anything and everything that can help with the build..... are there Any more pictures out there, any information whether it had filters at any time fitted or not, anything specific about the aircraft? 

 

Just anything really as I can't find anything 

 

 

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http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/leaderboard/&custom_date_start=1442664000&custom_date_end=1442664000&in=forums-pid

 

http://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/EP436

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1432032817/malta+spitfire

 

I simply searched via google, "Spitfire EP436 site:www.britmodeller.com" and without the site limiter. There may be enough in the above links to focus your queries. 

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4 hours ago, Greenshirt said:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/leaderboard/&custom_date_start=1442664000&custom_date_end=1442664000&in=forums-pid

 

http://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/EP436

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1432032817/malta+spitfire

 

I simply searched via google, "Spitfire EP436 site:www.britmodeller.com" and without the site limiter. There may be enough in the above links to focus your queries. 

 

Thanks for the links. 

 

I had found the all spitfire pilots one and there wasn't much but at least it gives the engine type for some detailing. 

 

 

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I've had a good read through the links and its interesting that the colour schemes appear to have been made up so there's multiple options for the scheme. 

 

The mask instructions show the underneath to be sky but is this the sky as seen in BOB of aircraft or sky blue? 

 

Grateful for any advice on this. 

 

Cheers 

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On 15/07/2017 at 11:21 AM, Antb said:

The options for these masks are S-V EP436 of 1435 squadron in Malta in October 1942 in extra dark sea grey with sky undersides.

 

Which reflects the currently accepted 'most likely' scheme for this aircraft. 

The photograph you have seen shows little evidence of a demarcation between upper colours, but it's always possible that there is a two colour scheme which shows very low contrast under the conditions in which the photograph was taken. This is why you'll probably get plenty of contrary opinions.

 

Don't forget the wheel hub covers :)

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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26 minutes ago, Stonar said:

 

Which reflects the currently accepted 'most likely' scheme for this aircraft. 

The photograph you have seen shows little evidence of a demarcation between upper colours, but it's always possible that there is a two colour scheme which shows very low contrast under the conditions in which the photograph was taken. This is why you'll probably get plenty of contrary opinions.

 

Don't forget the wheel hub covers :)

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

Thanks Steve so really artistic licence ahoy then? 

 

Wheel hub covers? 

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The wheel hub covers make it look "smooth" instead of showing the five spokes of the actual hub.

 

Looking at the photo, which I finally tracked down in a large-ish size online, I think I can see a color demarcation sloping forward and down from the front of the fin (running through the serial), and another from the base of the mast, between the 'S' and the roundel.  Hard to feel any strong conviction, though.

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2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

The wheel hub covers make it look "smooth" instead of showing the five spokes of the actual hub.

 

Looking at the photo, which I finally tracked down in a large-ish size online, I think I can see a color demarcation sloping forward and down from the front of the fin (running through the serial), and another from the base of the mast, between the 'S' and the roundel.  Hard to feel any strong conviction, though.

 

Thanks @gingerbob the potential demarcation is interesting. So if I wanted I could go either a two tone camo or a one colour topside. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, gingerbob said:

The wheel hub covers make it look "smooth" instead of showing the five spokes of the actual hub.

 

Looking at the photo, which I finally tracked down in a large-ish size online, I think I can see a color demarcation sloping forward and down from the front of the fin (running through the serial), and another from the base of the mast, between the 'S' and the roundel.  Hard to feel any strong conviction, though.

 

Funnily enough I thought I might just be able to see the 'Castle Bromwich S' running down from the nose, under the cockpit , and then down (onto the wing, though that bit I couldn't see):) It might just be evidence of the cleaning of exhaust staining.

The fact that you potentially saw different demarcations shows just how tricky it is to know either way. Now you mention them I too might just be seeing the one from the mast, but nothing on the fin. I share your lack of conviction!

 

There are a couple of pictures of another aircraft of this unit, AR565, which shows even less evidence of any demarcations. Someone will now mention PR Blue to further muddy the already opaque waters (as Flight Lieutenant 'Jerry' Billing, who served with No. 185 Squadron on Malta has done. He died a couple of years ago and the grand age of 93).

 

I think I would model the aircraft in a single upper colour. There is always a chance that any perceived and slight demarcations are just the underlying scheme ghosting through. It would be hard to argue against someone who decided to model the subject in a two colour scheme.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

Edited by Stonar

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7 hours ago, Stonar said:

 

Funnily enough I thought I might just be able to see the 'Castle Bromwich S' running down from the nose, under the cockpit , and then down (onto the wing, though that bit I couldn't see):) It might just be evidence of the cleaning of exhaust staining.

The fact that you potentially saw different demarcations shows just how tricky it is to know either way. Now you mention them I too might just be seeing the one from the mast, but nothing on the fin. I share your lack of conviction!

 

There are a couple of pictures of another aircraft of this unit, AR565, which shows even less evidence of any demarcations. Someone will now mention PR Blue to further muddy the already opaque waters (as Flight Lieutenant 'Jerry' Billing, who served with No. 185 Squadron on Malta has done. He died a couple of years ago and the grand age of 93).

 

I think I would model the aircraft in a single upper colour. There is always a chance that any perceived and slight demarcations are just the underlying scheme ghosting through. It would be hard to argue against someone who decided to model the subject in a two colour scheme.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

Thank you Steve, that's most helpful. 

 

Manged to to pick up the parcel from the post office today and looking at the masks the sky is a greyish colour, so the top is sorted now just the bottom to sort. 

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A possibly more likely uppersurface colour will have been Dark Mediterranean Blue, as it is now know that this is what was requested by Malta for the Op. Calendar deliveries.  Undersides are likely to have been Azure Blue.

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15 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

A possibly more likely uppersurface colour will have been Dark Mediterranean Blue, as it is now know that this is what was requested by Malta for the Op. Calendar deliveries.  Undersides are likely to have been Azure Blue.

 

Hi Graham 

 

Thank you for the new information. 

 

It's a bit of a minefield isn't it with the correct colours. Atkeast whatever I choose can't be wrong :D

 

I haven't started the kit yet but will certainly take your comments into consideration when it comes to painting her up. 

 

Thanks again  

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

  Undersides are likely to have been Azure Blue.

 

 

1 minute ago, Stonar said:

Given all the normal caveats about interpreting B+W photographs, the underside looks awfully light to be Azure Blue.

 

I don't think we can say that all post 'Calendar'/April '42 deliveries were finished in Dark Mediterranean Blue. Some definitely were not, and definitely is not a word that can often be used in relation to Malta Spitfires :)

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

 

Edited by Stonar

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I entirely agree: but then I didn't claim every Spitfire was in DMB.  I suggested it as a likely option to EDSG.  EP436 wasn't delivered until Op. Train in October.  However, DMB was requested from Malta, so there is a clear implication that this is the dark colour that they were using before Calendar and continued to use into March 1943.  (With 249 Sq, at least.)

 

I gather that Paul Lucas is to follow his Calendar article with another.  It's my (current) belief that the Bellows delivery were in  Temperate Sea Scheme, judging from the variation in B&W photos from this operation.  It'll be most interesting to see the official correspondence.  If so, aircraft in TSS will (possibly) have had Sky undersides which would indeed appear light.  However, given the long misunderstanding of this colour, it might be worth repeating that Azure Blue is a light colour.  Darker undersides seen on Desert Scheme aircraft were probably Light Mediterranean Blue.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

  I suggested it as a likely option to EDSG.  ..... If so, aircraft in TSS will (possibly) have had Sky undersides which would indeed appear light.  However, given the long misunderstanding of this colour, it might be worth repeating that Azure Blue is a light colour.  Darker undersides seen on Desert Scheme aircraft were probably Light Mediterranean Blue.

 

Well yes, Dark Mediterranean Blue it is certainly an option.

 

Again, with all the usual caveats I would suggest Sky generally appears lighter than Azure Blue in B+W photographs, and both appear much lighter than the colour on the undersides of some Malta Spitfires. I've seen it suggested that this underside colour was the aforementioned Dark Mediterranean Blue or even Night!

 

I still reckon that I'd do the subject in question in EDSG over Sky, but I expect the original poster is now as confused as everybody else who has attempted to nail down a Malta Spitfire :)

 

Cheers

 

Steve

Edited by Stonar

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On 7/26/2017 at 21:04, Stonar said:

 

Well yes, Dark Mediterranean Blue it is certainly an option.

 

Again, with all the usual caveats I would suggest Sky generally appears lighter than Azure Blue in B+W photographs, and both appear much lighter than the colour on the undersides of some Malta Spitfires. I've seen it suggested that this underside colour was the aforementioned Dark Mediterranean Blue or even Night!

 

I still reckon that I'd do the subject in question in EDSG over Sky, but I expect the original poster is now as confused as everybody else who has attempted to nail down a Malta Spitfire :)

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

I most certainly am Steve but it's all good fun. Right? 

 

I like the idea.of extra dark sea grey and azure blue and if no one can be definite that makes it even better for me. 

 

I really do.appreciate everyone's efforts so far it's really interesting. 

 

Haven't yet got the modelling mojo back but I'm sure I will make a start soonish 

 

Thanks again chaps 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Antb said:

 

 

Haven't yet got the modelling mojo back but I'm sure I will make a start soonish 

 

 

 

I've got my mojo and I've got an enforced break from work. Unfortunately that break is due to a rather nasty shoulder injury and a Special Hobby He 113, which has only a very approximate fit so far and requires quite a bit of fettling which I won't be doing one handed and under the influence of a cocktail of drugs which certainly don't help with concentration or coordination, is going to languish on the bench for a bit longer.

Good luck with your Spitfire, however you decide to do it :)

Cheers

Steve

 

Edited by Stonar

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10 hours ago, Stonar said:

 

I've got my mojo and I've got an enforced break from work. Unfortunately that break is due to a rather nasty shoulder injury and a Special Hobby He 113, which has only a very approximate fit so far and requires quite a bit of fettling which I won't be doing one handed and under the influence of a cocktail of drugs which certainly don't help with concentration or coordination, is going to languish on the bench for a bit longer.

Good luck with your Spitfire, however you decide to do it :)

Cheers

Steve

 

 

Thanks steve hope the recovery goes well and is speedy. 

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