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    • Mike

      PhotoBucket are no longer permitting 3rd party hosting   01/07/17

      As most of you are now painfully aware, Photobucket (PB) are stopping/have stopped allowing their members to link their accumulated years of photos into forums and the like, which they call 3rd party linking.  You can give them a non-refundable $399 a year to allow links, but I doubt that many will be rushing to take them up on that offer.  If you've previously paid them for the Pro account, it looks like you've got until your renewal to find another place to host your files, but you too will be subject to this ban unless you fork over a lot of cash.   PB seem to be making a concerted move to another type of customer, having been the butt of much displeasure over the years of a constantly worsening user interface, sloth and advertising pop-ups, with the result that they clearly don't give a hoot about the free members anymore.  If you don't have web space included in your internet package, you need to start looking for another photo host, but choose carefully, as some may follow suit and ditch their "free" members at some point.  The lesson there is keep local backups on your hard drive of everything you upload, so you can walk away if the same thing happens.   There's a thread on the subject here, so please use that to curse them, look for solutions or generall grouse about their mental capacity.   Not a nice situation for the forum users that hosted all their photos there, and there will now be a host of useless threads that relied heavily on photos from PB, but as there's not much we can do other than petition for a more equitable solution, I suggest we make the best of what we have and move on.  One thing is for certain.  It won't win them any friends, but they may not care at this point.    Mike.
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Beardie

A sobering thought about early days flying

54 posts in this topic
36 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

an eye opener

 

There is a series of books from the USA on Airline disasters. Stroll on, they had it rough over there. One which you might have seen on the Discovery Channel, PBS and other channels that bought it.

The United DC-7 and a TWA Connie met up over the Grand Canyon literally ! You can google it for a scary read. TWA and United had their own coms centres that didn't interact with anyone else really unless interrogated by the governing body's radio setup . Other things like...Flying in to bad weather that hadn't been flagged and flying low in unpressurised aircraft.  Cowling flaps opened in the cruise seemed to be a recurring nightmare.

Another  Connie flew in to airspace that the previous plane had dumped fuel in an emergency. Big radials breathing gas and just disappeared .

 

The TWA/United story is in     Air Disaster, The propeller era Vol 1   this is available at Amazon in Kindle mode for 2.99 or free if you go for the kindle unlimited free trial gig which you'll need to cancel as per the T&Cs (30 days) or you get charged.  The other volumes available are books at £20 odd.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Air-Disaster-Propeller-Macarthur-Job-ebook/dp/B00E9CIZBG/ref=pd_lutyp_simh_1_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00E9CIZBG&pd_rd_r=2GEXC4RP713J92HW6YDW&pd_rd_w=umRt7&pd_rd_wg=CtJ1e&psc=1&refRID=2GEXC4RP713J92HW6YDW

Kindle unlimited trial

https://www.amazon.co.uk/kindle-dbs/hz/signup?ref=dbs_p_ebk_r00_pbcb_diupu0&_encoding=UTF8&passThroughAsin=B00E9CIZBG

 

I just bought the three of the Jet era vols for £4, Vol 1 was only 1p !

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No pre take off/landing check lists. Very poor navigational aids.

Hit & miss maintenance. Hoping for the best in icing conditions.

They were pretty much making it all up as they gained experience.

Frightening!

 

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On 14/07/2017 at 6:33 AM, TheLurker said:

 

"The Pup2 was relatively easy to fly with somewhat benign characteristics, however the F1 was not.  The powerful Clerget rotary engine created strong gyroscopic forces that coupled with the torque made the aircraft able to turn right very quickly but with a nose down tendency. These dynamic forces made the aircraft manoeuvrable and a fearsome foe -  but tricky to fly. This often ended in disaster for inexperienced pilots.

 

I have been told but not verified for myself, that the Camel was flown by the engine magnetos rather than throttle.  Meaning the engine was at full power or off.  Pilots would maintain engine speed with bursts of, rather than constant power..  

 

Is this correct? That would add extra danger through burst of torque and gyroscopic effect...

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1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

I have been told but not verified for myself, that the Camel was flown by the engine magnetos rather than throttle.  Meaning the engine was at full power or off.  Pilots would maintain engine speed with bursts of, rather than constant power..  

 

Is this correct? That would add extra danger through burst of torque and gyroscopic effect...

Morning!  Yes it's basically true. This is useful in explaining the 'blip" switch

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine

 

jonners

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, Gorby said:

Just had a look though and was shocked. I though that the 1938-1939 would be a shorter list, but it goes on, and on. 

Unbelievable that those are 'acceptable' casualties in peace-time.

Lurking in Waterstone's yesterday whilst MrsLurker had her hair done I was skim reading a copy of "Phoenix Squadron" about the Buccaneer "visit" made by 809 NAS to Belize in 1972 and there is a short section about the casualty rate in peace time.  Because I was skim reading I can't give you a verbatim quote but one of those involved in the mission had sat down one day and listed 75 pilots he'd known who had died.  This was in a very short period of time in the late 1960s / early 1970s.  I think it may have been as short as 3 years, but I wasn't reading closely so it could have been longer.

 

 

Phoenix Squadron review here : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/5237235/Phoenix-Squadron-by-Rowland-White-review.html

Edited by TheLurker

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, TheLurker said:

Phoenix Squadron

 Great book, highly recommended, the same guy (Rowland White)  that wrote Vulcan 607? The Vulcan raid on Stanley .

Edited by bzn20
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Regarding the willingness of youngsters to join up regardless of the risk, maybe we should put it into perspective by considering how many people are killed or injured in road accidents - and have been throughout the last 100 years - yet no one gives a second thougt about getting into their car every day.

 

 

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I think it would put some people off learning to drive though if they knew that they might not survive the driving test. I do agree though that road death statistics are pretty shocking, especially among newly qualified drivers and the elderly. It seems that every other day someone either kills themself, or is killed by someone, in the 18-25 and 70-99 brackets.

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On 15/7/2017 at 10:08 PM, bzn20 said:

Thing is that the whole time these things were happening they were all learning, trail blazing. even pre and post war (WW2) passenger flights were a gamble. Radial engine Cowling flaps opening for no reason inflight and fall out of the sky. No weather radar , comms not that great and when they did ,no centralised comms. in the USA for instance.

 

Seeing those casualty rates I wonder how long the Aeroplane would last if it was invented today. The legal profession (and media) would have a field day.

 

 

Pioneering days inevitably see higher casualty rates and in a sense we owe a lot to those who lost their lives in those days as the safety measures we have today are also a consequence of those losses.

 

If the aeroplane was invented today we'd likely see things done very differently, as the culture of safety regulations has changed so much that someone like the Wright brothers would have big problems in trying  to get the relevant authorities to accept their idea of flying over public land with something nobody had tried before (although the Wrights were very throrough in their work before getting the first aeroplane in the air).

We can see it in the way aircrafts are developed today, even before a prototype is ready there are tons of results from models, analyses and calculations and nothing is accepted in service without having proven a whole lot of performance parameters. Back in the days you built something, get it to fly and then every problem would have been sorted (or not) at a later date. Certain types would never be given a permission to fly if they were built today

 

 

14 hours ago, dambuster said:

Regarding the willingness of youngsters to join up regardless of the risk, maybe we should put it into perspective by considering how many people are killed or injured in road accidents - and have been throughout the last 100 years - yet no one gives a second thougt about getting into their car every day.

 

 

 

Not sure road accidents can be compared to early flying or even military flying in general, the UK saw almost 1800 people killed in road accidents last year but at the same time there are more than 30 milion vehicles on UK roads. Certain military aircraft types in the 50s and 60s suffered accident rates that resulted in the loss of 20-30% of the whole production. Flying from carriers is even more dangerous: the FAA lost 51 Sea VIxen crews during 12 years of operation on the type, I don't know how many passed through Sea Vixen units over that period but I'm sure not too many. The chances of getting killed for a Sea Vixen pilot or radar operator were much higher than those we have today when driving a car. Of course the thrills were also infinitely higher and I'm sure very few of us would hesitate if offered a flight in one.

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2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

getting the first aeroplane in the air

OOOH..that's a right:worms:  !

 

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Gremlins in the system seem to have prevented me doing multiple quotes.

Giorgi also mentions that some aircraft lost 20 - 30% of their production..in the Scimitar's case it was 51%. Can't imagine that nowadays can we?

This link makes sobering reading and it doesn't include pre 1950..

http://www.ukserials.com/losses_index.htm

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Pioneering days inevitably see higher casualty rates and in a sense we owe a lot to those who lost their lives in those days as the safety measures we have today are also a consequence of those losses.

 

The cliché I hate. Lessons will be learnt..... They actually were back then and still does today, one of the few industries that does it correctly. Sure it goes wrong sometimes, it only takes one or a collection of cock ups but  lessons learned is keeping it and us safe. First thing in training is..............

 

FLIGHT SAFETY ,its the corner stone that everything hangs off. Everyone from the rock bottom mech to the top of the Air Force /Airline/ Maintenance centres/ Air Traffic. We are not doctors and nurses, we could be taken to court. 100% Accountability . Its got our name on every job .

Edited by bzn20

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Slightly OT, but the reason that you don't often see Doctors and Nurses in court had more to do with how the law around vicarious liability works and the willingness of the NHS to settle out of court. I speak as an ex lawyer turned nurse and someone who spent a lot of time looking at this as a lecturer.

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If you want a modern comparison I suggest Irish Motorcycle Road Racing.

Every year dozens of new riders join the sport even though the risk of death or severe injury runs at about 60% of new riders in their first two seasons, lowering to 30% for the next three years and 25% for the years after.

In numbers; 6 of every 10 new riders will be dead or hospitallised inside the first two years. Of the remaining 4, one will be dead or hospitalised by year five, of the final 3 one will be dead before they are too old to give it up

Where I used to live up country we had a local motorcycle racing team. There were an original 6 riders we supported. By the sixth year or so 5 of the original 6 were all dead, but we had new riders joining every year. And each year there was one fatality or severe hospitalisation of one of those riders.

Deaths are fewer now, but severe injury still happens

 

records I have are for several years ago; an average of 800 new riders applying for road-racing licences per year, plus about 3000 licences already held

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I think you've probably hit the nail on the head @Black Knight , it may not be that they were braver at a previous point in history, it's probably about youth, Adrenalin and the feeling of immortality the young often have. I can't think of any other reason why the appeal of base-jumping and the craze, particularly in Russia of taking 'selfies' in ludicrously dangerous places, seems to be growing, in spite of the horrendous death toll.

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Some of the individual stories are quite tragic.

During WWII a shepherd at Strachur fought to be allowed to join the RAF despite his reserved occupation. He eventually won but was sadly killed during flying training.

There is a small memorial giving bare details so perhaps I'll do some more detailed research once I finally retire.

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That story sounds interesting Richard I would be interested to know it too.

 

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21 hours ago, Martin T said:

Slightly OT, but the reason that you don't often see Doctors and Nurses in court had more to do with how the law around vicarious liability works and the willingness of the NHS to settle out of court. I speak as an ex lawyer turned nurse and someone who spent a lot of time looking at this as a lecturer.

Correct plus they close ranks and lie. If it goes to a tribunal type thing a bunch of Doctors judge them. If one Doctor says something like I would have done that, the "guilty" Doctor/Surgeon wins. I've had it explained by solicitors several times, meanwhile SWMBO is in a wheelchair, I aint working looking after her and tax payers are paying instead of the Pea brain's Liability insurance.

 

This is absolutely OT. My wife is recovering from a Ligament re attachment (Knee op) in a locked brace keeping the leg straight along comes a Guppy called Mr Monarch, an Orthopedic (can't spell) Consultant. Nothing to do with my wife. Who, without looking at her file unlocks the brace rotates the leg through 90 degs snaps the repaired ligament/tendon and tears another. Not his fault he was just checking !

He was really old, 70 ish. and I hope he's dead to be honest with something nasty .

That isn't the end of it. An Italian "surgeon" ******* the same knee joint up in 2011, he was sacked, the others closed up. One said (Cohen) he didn't take notice of MRI scans, that's a belter.  He's not old and many years to cock up and lie about his frailties. We had meetings at Hospital, got a Sorry. Nobody , legal wise would touch it with a barge pole.

I was steaming just typing this and that's all I want to say.

Except.

I can guarantee that if any guy working along side me or I did anything wrong on an aircraft/component that there wouldn't be a cover up. Not  an option to think about. The incompetence would be sorted, repaired or in the end reported regardless, I'm not working with at  idiot because...... Its how we worked. You'd have no mates in the crew room.

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Medical incompetence does seem to be an area where little is done. I was talking to a local specialist about a complaint my wife made against our local doctor. He told me that the health board had a folder full of complaints against him (I know a few of those who complained and why) but that he would have to commit an enormous blunder and not just be generally useless/ unhelpful before he was removed.

 

I was talking to a solicitor some time ago and he was involved in a suit against the NHS in Scotland over replacement joints. Apparently the joints that were used had a high content of nickel or some other metal (I can't recall the exact details) in the 'surgical' steel which was leading to high toxicity levels in the recipients. Apparently one of the surgeons who carried out the operations is outraged that the health board had provided him with components made of materials which in his words 'any fool would know shouldn't be used'. Apparently NHS are fighting the case all the way. I have been told there are even specialists examining patients for implant failures who sit on the boards of the companies who make the implants - Like they are going to be impartial.

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I used to say that when things went wrong the medical profession and hospitals would stick together like they had been superglued. The doctors have traditionally had very aggressive liability insurers  and the NHS had Crown Immunity for some parts of its business for years (eg Food hygiene and stuff enforced by local authorities). Nursing on the other hand came apart so swiftly that you had to duck to avoid being hit by the shrapnel.

Think we better move back to the topic before it turns political or wanders in completely the wrong direction.

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On 16/07/2017 at 9:22 AM, TheLurker said:

Lurking in Waterstone's yesterday whilst MrsLurker had her hair done I was skim reading a copy of "Phoenix Squadron" about the Buccaneer "visit" made by 809 NAS to Belize in 1972 and there is a short section about the casualty rate in peace time.  Because I was skim reading I can't give you a verbatim quote but one of those involved in the mission had sat down one day and listed 75 pilots he'd known who had died.  This was in a very short period of time in the late 1960s / early 1970s.  I think it may have been as short as 3 years, but I wasn't reading closely so it could have been longer.

 

 

Phoenix Squadron review here : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/5237235/Phoenix-Squadron-by-Rowland-White-review.html

 

I certainly remember watching Look East in the 70's & 80's and it seemed jets were connecting with the ground in unfortunate ways all the time.  Seemed F111 and Harriers a lot of the time, probably just my memory playing up though.  Back in the day, was it 700+ Meteor Pilots killed, hence the Meatbox nickname.

 

As for WWI, if anyone gets a copy of a book called 'No empty seats', the loss of guys in training and in non-combat accidents is mentioned a lot.  

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1 hour ago, PLC1966 said:

 

I certainly remember watching Look East in the 70's & 80's and it seemed jets were connecting with the ground in unfortunate ways all the time.  Seemed F111 and Harriers a lot of the time, probably just my memory playing up though.  

We were in Northants at the time and Look East was our BBC region and I think you're right.  The ones that stick in my mind though are the A10s.  They had some fatal crashes;  apparently the result of trying out tricksy "dog-fighting" type manoeuvres (not sure if they were in the UK or US  - late 1970s) and I used to see them "stunting" over my school.  Not reassuring at all.

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I recall looking into the history of BAC/EE Lightnings some years ago and I was shocked at just how many had been lost. I think there was about fourteen pilots killed during the service life but a considerable number of pilots were forced to eject due to catastrophic failures.

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On 7/18/2017 at 3:12 AM, Gorby said:

I can't think of any other reason why the appeal of base-jumping and the craze, particularly in Russia of taking 'selfies' in ludicrously dangerous places, seems to be growing, in spite of the horrendous death toll.

I can't speak for those who like to climb buildings just to take a selfie (ego?), but speaking as someone who has jumped off of things, you tend to meet people who are particularly focused on doing the job correctly and paying attention to details.

The BASE community is a gathering of interesting individuals from all walks of life (business owners feature predominantly here) who appreciate the risks and manage them very well. A different breed are those who jump with wingsuits and "proximity fly" close to the ground. A recent large spate of impacts has yet to deter others however.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, hairystick said:

The BASE community is a gathering of interesting individuals from all walks of life (business owners feature predominantly here) who appreciate the risks and manage them very well. A different breed are those who jump with wingsuits and "proximity fly" close to the ground. A recent large spate of impacts has yet to deter others however.

A docu called '20 Seconds or Joy' about basejumper Karina Hollekim is one of the best i've seen,one of the blokes she jumped with said on the docu "When you start jumping you have two jars one full of luck and the other empty..Everytime you jump you take a bit out of the luck jar and put it in the other,sooner or later you know your luck is going to run out" in the coolest matter of fact manner that it was inevitable,that was with wingsuits as well...

Edited by Vince1159

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