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Why does Hasegawa not include weapons for most of their modern kits?


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Hi there BMs

 

Well there is another run of complains, you got wonderful AIM-4 but you only had the chance to put them originaly to bad shaped F-102 and F-106, for other part the only source of rails for Phantoms came in older Hase kits.

On the modern side you got a very nice parts to detail a F-14 Bombcat but you need to buy two different sets to have all the parts, A very nice Su-33 with weapons but then they release a set for Russian weapons with some not included on the kit, for the contrary the Eurofighter this one includes the whole weapons set of the Eoropean Aircraft weapons so ???????????? a big ??????? and sorry for my French

 

I always wonder that those guys never are collectors only plastic builders

 

Best day

Armando

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Hi, gentlemen,

 

IMHO the reasoning "so they can sell more kits (i.e., the kit AND the weapon set)" only works for someone who is buying a very short number of kits (that is, he who doesn't use up even one set). Also, the contrary reasoning "Hasegawa would have to pay for the moulds in every kit" is misleading; it is The Modeller who would have to pay for it.

 

My reasoning is that kits would be much more expensive and modellers who buy a reasonable number of kits would be left with too many unused ordnance they have already paid for. Instead, by smart buying, you can minimize the effect (I know, you end up with a lot of unused weapons anyway) How many weapons remain hopelessly unused after building, say, three or four 1/72nd Revell Taifuns? I would have rather pay the same money for a better basic kit (that is, the mould costs invested in a better basic kit) and buy a weapons set. 

 

That said, there are some weapons you cannot do without, say, AAMs. That would be wise to include in the kits. Along with pylons and fuel tanks and ordnance specific to one aircraft type only. That even Hasegawa does. The F-2 kits, for instance, come with all that fancy looking Japanese missiles (even though there is an especialized weapons set) I got enraged, for instance, at Hase's 1/48th F-104G, that doesn't bring even the wing pylons (not to speak of the very characteristic double bomb "shoe"), or the Tamiya 1/72nd F-16C, devoid of tanks AND pylons.

 

In the "golden era of aircraft weapon load", they were more of an afterthought or toylike feature meant to attract kids; most of the times they were terribly inaccurate and underdetailed, even more than the kits themselves, which were not good in those respect by any mean. I would rather have good, well detailed and accurate weapons, like it is today the trend. Any way,  nowadays operative aircraft carry far less weapon than theoretically possible, so "less is more"; weapons scarcity makes you research and achieve more realistic loads in your models. See a F-16 in operations anywhere; probably at most it carries ONE AAM, a targeting pod and one or two guided bombs in the 500 lb range.

 

I still think it is a great idea. Makes you save money and build better looking models.

 

Fernando

Edited by Fernando
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  • 2 weeks later...

I think there is something very wrong with this thread, and that is the idea we "need" weapons. It is not a "need", it is a choice.

 

We can build perfectly accurate scale aircrafts without hanging under their wings any weapon.

 

Kudos to Hasegawa.

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On 02/08/2017 at 09:46, galfa said:

I think there is something very wrong with this thread, and that is the idea we "need" weapons. It is not a "need", it is a choice.

 

We can build perfectly accurate scale aircrafts without hanging under their wings any weapon.

 

Kudos to Hasegawa.

Except that by not providing weapons you are taking away that choice somewhat. You can include them and peoplestill not fit them, or not include them, provide them in a separate set and get the views that you do on here....

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On 8-8-2017 at 1:48 AM, cossack52 said:

simple answer;buy a hobbyboss or trumpeter kit,youll get a decent load for the kit,and enough spares for a second.bought the hboss a7;fitted it out,and had enough left over to arm a hasegawa weaponless kit

 

Unfortunately, Hobbyboss's A-7 weapons are not at all accurate - they look rather stretched. 


 

On 2-8-2017 at 10:46 AM, galfa said:

I think there is something very wrong with this thread, and that is the idea we "need" weapons. It is not a "need", it is a choice.


We can build perfectly accurate scale aircrafts without hanging under their wings any weapon.

 

A Vietnam-era F-4, A-4 or A-7 with nothing hanging underneath it looks just... wrong. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

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  • 1 month later...

Well.. I can live with not getting the weapons. I like finding better looking alternatives even if it costs more. Weapons, like the cockpit, is a focus point many people look at first and having better looking ones enhances the model. Or can I should say.. :)

 

It is not a huge deal if I do not get any. But I really want drop tanks to be included and launchers would be nice but I guess it makes more sense to have them in Weapon Sets..

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It seems the current batch of managers at Hasegawa is more keen to monetize their kits in as many ways as possible. So I have greatly reduced my Hasegawa and Tamiya purchases. I find their kits fit poorly and the lack of weapons is a show-stopper for me. I am opting for the niche, Korean and Chinese brands instead. 

 

I find that sometimes these kits fit better and have more options. AMK is a great brand in my opinion. Too bad they only have a limited number of models. Can't wait for their F-14 release end of year. I got their 1/72 Kfir and the level of detail is fantastic, their weapon options are generous. 4 AAMs, 8 GBUs, 6 Mk82s and drop tanks, all in amazing detail. I got it for the equivalent of US$15 here in Asia.  There are many niche brands that are coming out with affordable great looking kits. 

 

Some of the Fujimi and Academy kits are quite decent and Hobbyboss, Trumpeter are catching up. Their 1/48 scale looks decent enough and they give plenty of load options. Over time the Japanese brands will likely only survive in Japan if they do not respond with more generous parts, better details and better fitting models. 

 

Like mobile phones, in my grandfather's days, the plastic model market was dominated by Airfix, Monogram, Revell, etc, the UK/USA brands. In my father's days these brands were overtaken by Tamiya and Hasegawa, Japanese brands just like what Sony, etc did to the Western electronics companies. The Korean brands then emerged just like how Samsung is killing the Japanese brands. Today we are seeing more Chinese and niche brands just like how Huawei, Xiaomi, etc are killing the Korean and Japanese with similar or sometimes better quality products at lower prices.  

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7 hours ago, CasualModel98 said:

It seems the current batch of managers at Hasegawa is more keen to monetize their kits in as many ways as possible. So I have greatly reduced my Hasegawa and Tamiya purchases. I find their kits fit poorly and the lack of weapons is a show-stopper for me. I am opting for the niche, Korean and Chinese brands instead. 

 

I find that sometimes these kits fit better and have more options. (...)

Hi, CasualModel98,

 

Actually, IMHO, it is a conceptual mistake. You are actually paying for ordnance you'll never use, as there is only a limited amount of "weapons" you can hang from any given plane. If you build just one model, that's is irrelevant. But if you build several in a row, you'll find yourself with your spare box full of unused ordnance. That will most probably prompt you to buy more kits to use them, just to find that the unused ordnance pile keeps growing.

 

I would rather pay the same money for a kit of better quality with few if any ordnance. Much the situation when comparing Tamiya's F-16s with Kinetic's.

 

Conceptually, it is much more efficient and cost-effective to buy several kits with few if any ordnance, provided the price is lower or the quality higher, and then a specialized "weapons set" (or even one kit with lots of them to cannibalize). I know, in the process, you'll be left with a heap of unused ordnance, but your chances to actually use them are higher.

 

Besides, today no plane on actual operations carries the theoretical possible weapons load. See those F-16s in Afghanistan or Irak; they have one AAM or two; a designator pod and one or two LGBs or GPS bombs. I guess that war on the Central Front in the event of a Soviet armoured breakthrough would have been different, but that didn't happen. A fully loaded F-16 would look unrealistic, as if in a "what-if" situation. 

 

Finally, Tamiya usually gives you a fair, typical load, if providing no options; while Hasegawa usually provides fuel tanks and very specific ordnance (such as Japanese or European weapons). 

 

Regards,

 

Fernando

Edited by Fernando
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@Fernando talks a lot of sense.

 

:2c: It's not just Hasegawa that has this issue, all are guilty to a lesser or greater extent. I personally think that the manufacturers should produce the most accurate subject they can at the expense, dare I say it, detail. Get the fuselage right, wings right, etc. then go for an acceptable cockpit, acceptable wheel wells, basic weaponry and leave the detail to the AM guys. After all, not everybody wants the detailed cockpit and wheel wells, and want a 'basic' bird, that way, the kits should be less work and cheaper and would probably sell more. I do think that certain weapon sets are very hard to get, if at all, and more could be done their by all manufacturers.

 

Stuart

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To be honest, there is is the option of 3D printing looming in the horizon. Not only will you be able to order (and when prices come down print your own) ordnance, but you will also be able to order just the things you need, not buy a set with a shed load of stuff that will never be used. Current problem is getting easy access to measurement details to design your own...

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7 hours ago, charlie_c67 said:

To be honest, there is is the option of 3D printing looming in the horizon. Not only will you be able to order (and when prices come down print your own) ordnance, but you will also be able to order just the things you need, not buy a set with a shed load of stuff that will never be used. Current problem is getting easy access to measurement details to design your own...

I'm quite surprised that this is not further along than it is, particularly for the AM guys.

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On 8/8/2017 at 1:48 AM, cossack52 said:

simple answer;buy a hobbyboss or trumpeter kit,youll get a decent load for the kit,and enough spares for a second.bought the hboss a7;fitted it out,and had enough left over to arm a hasegawa weaponless kit

 

The problem with many kits from those companies is that you don't get a decent kit going with that load ! The HB A-7 may have plenty of (not too accurate) weapons but the general quality of this kit is well below what Hasegawa used to do 30 years ago.

Both Trumpeter and HB also often use whatever weapon they have already moulded and omit important ones.

 

On 27/9/2017 at 3:37 AM, CasualModel98 said:

It seems the current batch of managers at Hasegawa is more keen to monetize their kits in as many ways as possible. So I have greatly reduced my Hasegawa and Tamiya purchases. I find their kits fit poorly and the lack of weapons is a show-stopper for me. I am opting for the niche, Korean and Chinese brands instead. 

 

I find that sometimes these kits fit better and have more options. AMK is a great brand in my opinion. Too bad they only have a limited number of models. Can't wait for their F-14 release end of year. I got their 1/72 Kfir and the level of detail is fantastic, their weapon options are generous. 4 AAMs, 8 GBUs, 6 Mk82s and drop tanks, all in amazing detail. I got it for the equivalent of US$15 here in Asia.  There are many niche brands that are coming out with affordable great looking kits. 

 

Some of the Fujimi and Academy kits are quite decent and Hobbyboss, Trumpeter are catching up. Their 1/48 scale looks decent enough and they give plenty of load options. Over time the Japanese brands will likely only survive in Japan if they do not respond with more generous parts, better details and better fitting models. 

 

Like mobile phones, in my grandfather's days, the plastic model market was dominated by Airfix, Monogram, Revell, etc, the UK/USA brands. In my father's days these brands were overtaken by Tamiya and Hasegawa, Japanese brands just like what Sony, etc did to the Western electronics companies. The Korean brands then emerged just like how Samsung is killing the Japanese brands. Today we are seeing more Chinese and niche brands just like how Huawei, Xiaomi, etc are killing the Korean and Japanese with similar or sometimes better quality products at lower prices.  

 

Apart from a few niche manufacturers, the bulk of the Chinese companies are IMHO yet to show something at the same level of Tamiya and Hasegawa. Sure, some Hasegawa kits don't fit too well but we're often talking of moulds that are 25 year old or more and yet several of these kits are still much better than most brand new Chinese ones. Meng and AMK are the exception here, but I'll take a Hasegawa F-104 over a Hobbyboss kit anytime if I want a model I can build with no drama.

As for killing the Japanese brands, even if these only survive in Japan they'll be happy enough with it since the Japanese market is so much larger than all others. And I can't see the Chinese killing anyone here in Europe considering the prices their more recent products have.

 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I think it's both good and bad.

 

Good: you have a range of weapons and other goodies (MERs, TERs, pods, etc) in a relatively inexpensive set that can be used with relative ease with kits of any other manufacturer. Each set will definitely last you more than one build, which means you're basically getting a weapons load for about £3-4. Way cheaper than resin. Weapons sets after V are also of very good quality and I-IV aren't too bad although slightly dated.

 

My main complaint is that there are still some notable omissions. There's no pylon for single-Mavericks, no F-16 TER (i.e. TER-9A), no HARM except a very crude one in the older sets. There's very little in the way of 80s/90s NATO armament as well which is a shame given that I assume their Jaguars and Harriers sell relatively well. The decals are also not very comprehensive in some cases and miss out on key stencils.

 

Beyond that, the main "philosophical" reason to dislike them is that it's an excuse for Hasegawa to sell kits without weapons. I do think that all kits should come with at least one full weapons loadout, and preferably more if it's a kit where you can't source extra weapons elsewhere. It can't possibly be that expensive for kitmakers to include this: you can use the same tooling for numerous kits. Note that some of Hasegawa's newer kits include parts of a weapons set or even a full one: their EF Typhoon for example. It's still overpriced though.

 

So in a nutshell, that Hasegawa makes weapons sets: GOOD. That it then sells overpriced kits with no weapons: BAD.

 

(That said, the main reason Hase kits are overpriced is the UK distributor costs: you can typically get them for 1/2-2/3 price including shipping by ordering directly from Japan).

 

 

 

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  • 5 years later...

Old topic I've found here. My take is that it costs literally pennies for them to actually put weaponry in these kits, it should be included in the box, people seem to defend these businesses like these are owned by their family or something lol. Also it's not a matter of accuracy OR price OR options, it's their job to deliver accuracy with options at a great price. Hasegawa are still selling their 1970's and 1980's molds as brand new, why does Hasegawa gets a pass while Airfix and Revell don't (not defending those by any means). Oh but "I won't use every missile included", do a diorama, use on other projects, throw it in the bin, just don't pretend it's better to lack options in any way 😂.

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It doesn't cost pennies, but much money, to tool for a weapon set.  Remember that the company will only get a fraction of the price that you end up paying - they only get pennies.  If they spend this money then their kit will cost more, and sell less.  Basic economics.

 

Hasegawa are not selling their 70s tools but their 90s ones: which still compare quite well where the equivalent ones from Revell and Airfix don't!  (Generalising, obviously.)

 

Choice?  You are faced with this every time you buy any kit.  My Mk.I Spitfire won't come with Portuguese or Turkish markings.  My Mk.V won't come with the full choice of drop tanks that was carried.  As for the full range of stores that could be carried by a Halifax or Lancaster....

Substitute your favourite type/period - does every Nieuport come with De Prieur rockets? Every C-47 with racks for supply packs?

 

One thing is quite sure - this thread proves that there is no possible way for any company to satisfy all modellers.  Whatever they do, someone will complain.  Damned if they do, damned if they don't. 

 

 

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I have a huge cardboard box filled with unused weapons sprues from mostly Trumpeter and Academy kits which are just a godsend. Just one of those 1/32 kits provided enough armament for at least three other builds and have lasted me years.

 

It's nice when such a treasure trove is included in a standard kit price, but since I've had some left over for more than a decade, it makes sense to me why a manufacturer would decide not to bother to include them, it is a case of overkill because you can't possibly use everything for one build...Trumpeter especially use standard weapons sprues and just pack them into any subject kit they deem relevant*

 

*usually not very relevant in fact 😂

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Particularly I do not like to hang things under wings (and fuselages) when doing beautiful and  elegant jets.

Sign of times, today we have fine resin sets for things under wings, (Reskit, Eduard, Aires, AMS, Verlinden, to mention some few here) much better detailed then any "weapons" the mainstream plastic manufacturers could do.

As Mr. Neil Diamond sings in the "Sweet Caroline" song  ..."Good times never seemed so good..."

 

SouthViper 

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6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Hasegawa are not selling their 70s tools but their 90s ones: which still compare quite well where the equivalent ones from Revell and Airfix don't!  (Generalising, obviously.)

According to scalemates from the top of my head 1/72: f-16 (70s), f/a-18(80s), f-14 (80s), f-15 (80s), A-7 (60s), A-4(70s), f-4(70s), not counting their whole ww2 Japanese fighters from the 60s easily available at Super Hobby in Europe, Hobby Search and Hobby Link in Japan...

 

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It doesn't cost pennies, but much money, to tool for a weapon set.  Remember that the company will only get a fraction of the price that you end up paying - they only get pennies.  If they spend this money then their kit will cost more, and sell less.  Basic economics.

To include a pair of missiles on a half full sprue of their new toolings (forward ones)? You sure about that?! Pennies in plastic, 3d modeling done in an afternoon by a single designer, new toolings already will require new molds so why not?! Molds cost a lot but will be reused for at least 15 years if well done, the more they produce the kit the less it ends up costing in general. You can even test print the whole model without spending a dime in a mold nowadays which should bring the production general production cost...

Edited by caioapg
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6 hours ago, Alan P said:

I have a huge cardboard box filled with unused weapons sprues from mostly Trumpeter and Academy kits which are just a godsend. Just one of those 1/32 kits provided enough armament for at least three other builds and have lasted me years.

 

It's nice when such a treasure trove is included in a standard kit price, but since I've had some left over for more than a decade, it makes sense to me why a manufacturer would decide not to bother to include them, it is a case of overkill because you can't possibly use everything for one build...Trumpeter especially use standard weapons sprues and just pack them into any subject kit they deem relevant*

And these cost the same as a 30+ year old Tamiya or Hasegawa kit with no weapons at all lol. that's the problem, it's not about the manufacturing costs but how much you can squeeze from your buyers while the fans justify your greedy tactics. Just like Trumpeter, Hasegawa already has their old weapon moldings, why not to include it!? Maximize profits, the consumer be damned...

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In 1/48, Hasegawa actually does better than many give them credit.  They include air-to-air missiles in a lot of kits and typically include aircraft specific pylons or adapters, even if empty.  Off the top of my head I know the F-2, F-8, F-15 and F-16 all have air-to-air loads and the F-8 & F-15 have different weapons depending on the version (USA or foreign).  The 2nd generation F-16 Block 50 kits included a pair of HARMs. The Strike Eagle Demonstrator is packed with ordnance. I loaded 4 MERs on a Monogram A-6 from the leftovers from the F-15E kit. 

 

What they usually don't do is include air-to-ground ordnance and I don't mind. With planes having service lives measured in decades the types of weapons change over time. A Phantom load in Vietnam would be different for USAF & USN and that would be different than at the end of their service in Desert Storm.  I'd rather just get weapons for the plane I'm modelling than have a kit maker include every conceivable sprue.  Tamiya took a different approach with their 1/48 F-16s and each boxing has a different sprue with weapons appropriate for the markings in the box.

 

An extreme example is the I Love Kit F-22.  Just throw in every sprue from other kits that has at least one weapon used by the plane. I did the math once and over half the part count are weapons. But most of it is not used and we pay for the extra plastic with an inflated price and higher shipping due to increased weight and a bigger than necessary box.  I my opinion most of those weapons look like garbage anyway, so they would be destined for the trash and not the spares box.

 

Often weapons seem to be an afterthought in the airplane kit with simplified or missing details and frequently just bad shapes. And this is why I generally use aftermarket or Hasegawa weapon sets. I see AIM-9s with all sorts of wrong shaped control fins. Even the AIM-9 included in the Hasegawa F-16s have simplified rollerons compared to their weapon set versions  And then there is the fiasco with Kinetic's F-16 sprues. You have overly complicated weapon assembly with mediocre shapes destined for the trash only to be replaced with better looking aftermarket.

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1 hour ago, Steve McArthur said:

Tamiya took a different approach with their 1/48 F-16s and each boxing has a different sprue with weapons appropriate for the markings in the box.

 

An extreme example is the I Love Kit F-22.  Just throw in every sprue from other kits that has at least one weapon used by the plane. I did the math once and over half the part count are weapons. But most of it is not used and we pay for the extra plastic with an inflated price and higher shipping due to increased weight and a bigger than necessary box.  I my opinion most of those weapons look like garbage anyway, so they would be destined for the trash and not the spares box.

 

I agree 100% with what Tamiya did if it indeed makes it cost less (we know that it's not always the case).

 

That I Love Kit seems to be overkill, and I agree with what you said about it...

 

The Tamiya route seems reasonable and the best one overall.

 

Edit: I should add that I do own a resin printer, Anycubic photon mono 4k, it's more that I simply disagree with it not being available in the box, these kits are expensive here in Brazil...

Edited by caioapg
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Given the amount and variety of ordnance carried carried by jets over the years. I approve of separate weapons kits. Hasegawa were I think one of the first to issue them. I know I snapped up a couple in the eighties or whenever. The were used on all sorts of jet kits I built at the time. 

 

Quite often they replaced the supplied kit parts which were either inaccurate or incorrect or both. As mentioned above by Steve  Sidewinders were a particularly issue. We have the AIM 9A,B etc. Most modellers would at least add a  couple of Sidewinders. I remember building a Sea Harrier around '82. The kit had the wrong model Sidewinder. That was frustrating.

 

Hasegawa weapons were in fact the original aftermarket at a time when it barely existed. Aeroclub springs to mind. But now we do have a thriving aftermarket which supplies almost everything and is often more accurate than the kit item. 

 

Actually some kit makers like Eduard for example provide their own aftermarket. They offer a decent kit without add ons 'weekend' or a premium version with all the bells and whistles (or bombs and wheels.)

 

Take your pick. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, noelh said:

Hasegawa weapons were in fact the original aftermarket at a time when it barely existed. Aeroclub springs to mind. But now we do have a thriving aftermarket which supplies almost everything and is often more accurate than the kit item. 

I remember finding this in a big city hobby shop in the early 80s when I was a teenager. They all got used on 1/48 Monogram jets.  These are primitive in comparison to the Hasegawa sets and I'd never use it now, but according to Scalemates came out the same year.

549875-13741-94-pristine.jpg

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