Anonymous BF-109 E4 +++COMPLETED+++

[BIG X]

8 minutes ago, Gorby said:

This is similar but has the square canopy.

As you say, it's supposed to be fun so go with what you like the look of. Also, there seems to be a lot of variation from one plane to another. So it could have existed with your canopy. 

 

I like your thinking big man...

 

...apart from a number - would any of theses from this particular JG have had any of the fancy other markings - you know the "<" or "~" type things (sorry I don't know the correct terminology)

 

I am still learning

[Gorby]

4 minutes ago, BIG X said:

..apart from a number - would any of theses from this particular JG have had any of the fancy other markings - you know the "<" or "~" type things (sorry I don't know the correct terminology)

I haven't the slightest clue I'm afraid - sounds like a job for Batman @Troy Smith

[tango98]

One other thing about Schöpfel's E-4, it also carried a small yellow pennant attached to the radio mast. however, as you already have the yellow nose, how about Müncheberg's White 1+ I. This had a yellow nose (the yellow extending back to the rear of the supercharger intake) and a

yellow rudder and no mottle apart from a light application on each side of the fin. It also carried the red heart emblem of the 7./JG 26 on each side of the cowling and fourteen victory bars (in red on a blue 65 background) and a white pennant on the radio mast. Spinner and propeller blades were black-green 70. In the photo that I have of it here allegedly taken in late August, no "Schlageter" S in a shield appears under the windscreen.

One other thing worth noting regarding the 109s of the III./JG 26 is that usually during this period, the fuselage cross and Staffel numbers/markings were smaller than those normally applied to 109Es on the Channel Front.

 

HTH

Cheers

Dave

[Graham Boak]

The various chevrons etc in front of the cross were carried by Staffel, Gruppe and Geschwader commanders and staff: yes, like all other geschwader JG26 will have had its full share of those.  The bars or other markings carried aft of the cross identify the gruppe, the colour of the number identifies the staffel.  I'm sure you could find a fuller description of this system, which did vary somewhat during the war, in any book on the subject.  Or in Wikipedia, or even just by googling...

[Pauls9cb]

Hi again Steve,

As lots of the guys have said, there's loads of alternatives out there that you can make fit the model you're doing. You're the one who'll end up with the ultra critical eye so you set your own parameters. As Dave said, Gerhard Schoepfel's a/c is shown in lots of b&w pics and it's difficult to imagine the id yellow markings weren't extended to the whole rudder as Aug 1940 came to an end. Kacha's Luftwaffe page (www.luftwaffe.cz) has the histories of all the individual German aces with lists of their claims so you can figure out how many victory marks were on the rudder depending on what time during the Bob suits the model you're making. As commander of III Gruppe JG 26 he would have had an E-4 with the square canopy, cannons, and probably a yellow rudder with 22 victory markings by 1 Nov 1940 and little or no mottling (or not enough to worry about).

Lots of luck and perhaps avoid the detail demon if you can.

Paul

[BIG X]

1 hour ago, tango98 said:

One other thing about Schöpfel's E-4, it also carried a small yellow pennant attached to the radio mast. however, as you already have the yellow nose, how about Müncheberg's White 1+ I. This had a yellow nose (the yellow extending back to the rear of the supercharger intake) and a

yellow rudder and no mottle apart from a light application on each side of the fin. It also carried the red heart emblem of the 7./JG 26 on each side of the cowling and fourteen victory bars (in red on a blue 65 background) and a white pennant on the radio mast. Spinner and propeller blades were black-green 70. In the photo that I have of it here allegedly taken in late August, no "Schlageter" S in a shield appears under the windscreen.

One other thing worth noting regarding the 109s of the III./JG 26 is that usually during this period, the fuselage cross and Staffel numbers/markings were smaller than those normally applied to 109Es on the Channel Front.

 

HTH

Cheers

Dave

..you sound like a bit of an expert on this kind of stuff...

...please do not berate me too much - for what I am about to create   No real aircraft will be injured in the process!!!

[BIG X]

1 hour ago, Pauls9cb said:

Hi again Steve,

As lots of the guys have said, there's loads of alternatives out there that you can make fit the model you're doing. You're the one who'll end up with the ultra critical eye so you set your own parameters. As Dave said, Gerhard Schoepfel's a/c is shown in lots of b&w pics and it's difficult to imagine the id yellow markings weren't extended to the whole rudder as Aug 1940 came to an end. Kacha's Luftwaffe page (www.luftwaffe.cz) has the histories of all the individual German aces with lists of their claims so you can figure out how many victory marks were on the rudder depending on what time during the Bob suits the model you're making. As commander of III Gruppe JG 26 he would have had an E-4 with the square canopy, cannons, and probably a yellow rudder with 22 victory markings by 1 Nov 1940 and little or no mottling (or not enough to worry about).

Lots of luck and perhaps avoid the detail demon if you can.

Paul

...what a positive bit of motivation and great info - thanks a million Paul

[tango98]

Well, since you don't plan to injure any real aircraft in the process................................

Just pick the scheme that you like, give it your best shot and get 'er done and enjoy the process.

 

Cheers

Dave

[BIG X]

1 minute ago, tango98 said:

Well, since you don't plan to injure any real aircraft in the process................................

Just pick the scheme that you like, give it your best shot and get 'er done and enjoy the process.

 

Cheers

Dave

Cheers Mate and thanks for the follow too - I will try to make you proud - but don't get yer hopes up

[BIG X]

...well four coats of 'custard' later and having an amazing amount of input to help me choose a scheme - thanks folk - here we are...

 

 

The nosecone now needs painting black - which will probably disguise the poor filling of the prop stems...

 

 

...that over enthusiastic pre-shading seems to have finally succumbed to a quadruple dose of custard chucking.

 

 

now I know where the custard ends and the camo starts - it looks like TAMIYA TAPE TIME in the morning + a black nose + some extra pre-shade where I've obliterated it.

[Troy Smith]

22 minutes ago, BIG X said:

..you sound like a bit of an expert on this kind of stuff...

...please do not berate me too much - for what I am about to create   No real aircraft will be injured in the process!!!

Not  half!

 

Dave is Dave Wadman

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jagdwaffe-Britain-August-September-Luftwaffe-Colours/dp/1903223067

This is one of 4 on BoB fighter markings...

 

If you look look at the Asisbiz I linked, you will note the JG sections as eg Stab JG 26, I/JG 26 (Stab is the part with the chevron markings, )

So have a look through those sections.

 

this is a  different plane to  the one Dave mentions, but has the same application  of yellow

Messerschmitt Bf 109E3 7.JG26 (W13+I) Walter Blume Caffiers France 1940

 

 

There are a fair few colour images around from the era

also this by  Dave is well worth a read

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/camo/bob/bob_camo.htm

 

Be warned, I think you could  find BoB Emils a bit  addictive....

HTH

T

[tango98]

So Troy,  thirty three quid eh?............Yay!, I'm rich I tell you, rich I say (-not)!

Actually, the original camo and markings article from the Jagdwaffe series also shown on Lynn's 109 Lair is now about 17 years old but on and off since then I have been progressively revising and updating the original as more documentation, photos etc, etc becomes available.

Thus far we have been able to pin down (as best we can with the usual caveats) the likely colours of a number of 109s downed over the UK during 1940 through careful, hands-on examination of surviving airframe parts, many of which are held in private collections that I've been able to examine during my trips back to the UK during the intervening years. This information, with attendant images where possible, has been included adjacent to the particular aircraft entry.

 

While still an ongoing project, I hope to be able to make it generally available in pdf format at sometime early next year.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Pauls9cb]

Troy's right, the BoB Emils are addictive. I've built 5 in 1:48 scale and they're just the ones that were brought down around my home town in Sussex. Loads of options for the ones that came down around Kent and the London outskirts. Someone suggested spraying white on top of the primer when you're doing the yellow id areas. It saves having to put so many coats of yellow to get decent coverage. It works.

Despite your reluctance to post your builds, this looks like it'll be worth it so we'd probably all be interested to see how you complete it, whatever subject you choose. Happy fiddling!

Paul

[BIG X]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Not  half!

 

Dave is Dave Wadman

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jagdwaffe-Britain-August-September-Luftwaffe-Colours/dp/1903223067

 

 

 I knew starting a WIP thread was a bad idea - thanks @Antb - it's all your fault.  Now I've got people who have 'written books' watching me...

 

...now I am nervous  I promise I will do my best HONEST!!!

[Antb]

14 minutes ago, BIG X said:

 

 I knew starting a WIP thread was a bad idea - thanks @Antb - it's all your fault.  Now I've got people who have 'written books' watching me...

 

...now I am nervous  I promise I will do my best HONEST!!!

 

Erm.... terribly sorry and all that old chap. 

 

Youre enjoying it it so far though, right? Look how much you've learned so far, as D-Ream once said, things can only get better.... 

 

im enjoying it! 

 

The 109 looks super so far, great job!!! 

 

 

[tango98]

Don't worry, you're off to a good start and I'm sure you'll make a good job of it.

At least I'm sure you'll have it done long before my 32nd Cyberhobby E-4 which lays patiently on my bench in the "I'll get this one done really, really soon pile!"  along with a couple of others in the 'pending soon' pile.

 

Cheers

Dave

Edited July 8, 2017 by tango98

[jean]

Hi Big X,

 

just found your thread, and I feel for your quandary...

As mentioned in previous replies, the E-4 from Schopfeld is a great alternative. Except that only a triangle at the top of the rudder is yellow, along with the wing tips. AND it sports the red Hollenhund, which is in m,y eyes one of the nicest unit badges of the 2 WW Luftwaffe.

But at the end of the day, it is whatever makes you happy!

 

Have fun

JR

[BIG X]

OK - the pressure is mounting  it's time for a beer - but before I go - I've masked the nose and tail - first job tomorrow is a black nose - then paint the underside and sides...

 

Hellblau RLM65 - is that correct???

 

Here's the masks - I must get shares in Tamiya Tape...

 

 

That black nose should cover my lousy filling where the props should be...

 

 

I've over sprayed with more custard after masking to prevent bleed from other colours under the tape - I think that's right...

[Graham Boak]

A point to remember is that Yellow 7 will have been replaced by a new aircraft when lost (or sent back for an overhaul).  The new aircraft is likely to have been a cannon-equipped E-4, with the same markings.  So you are making that one.

 

Whether it will have retained the earlier style of "clean" fuselage sides is another matter, but it is arguable.

[BIG X]

2 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

A point to remember is that Yellow 7 will have been replaced by a new aircraft when lost (or sent back for an overhaul).  The new aircraft is likely to have been a cannon-equipped E-4, with the same markings.  So you are making that one.

 

Whether it will have retained the earlier style of "clean" fuselage sides is another matter, but it is arguable.

 

Nope - I'm yellow 11...

 

 

[BIG X]

...Boredom alert - when I do get started painting I'm a bit slow...

[BIG X]

OK - a couple of beers later - a couple of  beery questions about tomorrow's paint job...

 

The underside always comes first right - RLM 65 - yes???

 

Now - on the leading wing edge - the demarcation line from hellblau to camo - is it above / below or dead on the centre line???  (I daren't get it wrong - people are watching)

 

On the top wing to fuselage joint - I am confused as to where the wing camo ends and the body hellblau begins under the cockpit area - pictures would be appreciated.

 

I hope that makes sense - this Stella is really cold and tastes very refreshing

 

[BIG X]

...just found these from Eduard...

 

[Antb]

10 hours ago, BIG X said:

OK - a couple of beers later - a couple of  beery questions about tomorrow's paint job...

 

The underside always comes first right - RLM 65 - yes???

 

Now - on the leading wing edge - the demarcation line from hellblau to camo - is it above / below or dead on the centre line???  (I daren't get it wrong - people are watching)

 

On the top wing to fuselage joint - I am confused as to where the wing camo ends and the body hellblau begins under the cockpit area - pictures would be appreciated.

 

I hope that makes sense - this Stella is really cold and tastes very refreshing

 

 

Hi Dave 

 

I am.led.to believe that the colour you want is indeed RLM65. 

 

If you look at the profile of the aircraft you're doing the camo and 65 meet 3/4 of the way up the side of the fuselage. Only the top of the aircraft was the camo. 

 

Regarding the demarcation between wings and fuselage the wing root I painted the wing root in the camo and the rest in 65. Have a look at some of the reference photos on the web showing top down if you're unsure. 

 

Looks like the beer went well last night 

[Pauls9cb]

Steve,

For what they're worth, my feeling on thee points you raised are as follows:-

1) Underside colour - RLM 65 is the official colour. Nothing wrong with that, but I've always liked to think it was a bit greyer/darker than I imagined it might have been on a/c in the field. I tend to use Tamiya spray AS-5 but find it difficult these days to find replacement sprays so I've mixed up my own combo which essentially adds a bit of white to the oob RLM 65 range. All a matter of taste I think.

2) The wing leading edge division between upper/lower colours normally follows the natural line but there are many exceptions to this where the u/s colour is randomly sprayed over the front bit of the top colour in a non uniform way, the thought being that this might break up the a/c outline from the front when attacking - I think. Straight line is perhaps the simplest way.

3) Wing/fuselage division. I usually follow the curved, raised and rivetted fairing at each wing root, with wing camo outboard and the fuselage RLM 65 extending down to the top join of this fairing.

4) The fuselage spine division varies. Most JG 26 pics I've seen show the dividing line between upper and lower camo on the fuselage starting aft of the cockpit about halfway between the bottom edge of the canopy and the high point of the spine. As with all things like this, there are variations with the division both higher and lower but the mid point seems as good as anything. At the fin end, the line seems to finish under the root fairing of the fin, often curving upward slightly to cover the bottom part of the fin leading edge.

Your post will undoubtedly stimulate a rash of similar comments from all thse who want to see you making the best job of this you can.

Paul