Murph Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) On 7/8/2017 at 8:09 AM, Uncle Dick said: Please excuse my lack of knowledge on the fuel tank sloshing issues - do they not have the anti slosh foam or internal baffle structure to minimise the effect of slosh and cg issues????? No foam. Some external tanks have internal baffles, some don't. Remember they are intended to be disposable, so their cost and complexity is generally kept to a minimum. Additionally baffles add weight, and every ounce of weight on an aircraft is agonized over at the design stage. In the F-15 the engineers argued for quite some time over whether to include the retractable step, due to weight. The thing probably contributes five pounds to a 45,000 pound jet, but it was still seriously examined. Regards, Murph Edited July 9, 2017 by Murph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Dick Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Now that would be an interesting topic to see cross sections (length and diameter) of all the major well known fighter/attack aircraft external fuel tanks (not to mention the internal fuel tank configuration) over the years so we can appreciate the engineering that goes into such matters! Thank you all for the informative replies. Edited July 11, 2017 by Uncle Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I don't know if these photos help? I took them of the RN Phantom nose at RAF Cosford John 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Thanks to the Canberra kid. Yes everything helps if not me someone viewing the thread. In this case me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Great photos John! Thank You for sharing Best Regards, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 On 7/14/2017 at 05:11, canberra kid said: I don't know if these photos help? I took them of the RN Phantom nose at RAF Cosford John Something looks not quite right with this seat. I'm sure that there should be a back pad between the parachute pack and the PSP (covering the Black bit marked 32). On further examination I think that the seat pad on the top of the PSP (what the pilot sits on, its usually a black shaped padded cushion) is missing and I think the green back pad has actually fallen forward forward onto the PSP in its place. Try this https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/333089 Selwyn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 6 hours ago, Selwyn said: Something looks not quite right with this seat. I'm sure that there should be a back pad between the parachute pack and the PSP (covering the Black bit marked 32). On further examination I think that the seat pad on the top of the PSP (what the pilot sits on, its usually a black shaped padded cushion) is missing and I think the green back pad has actually fallen forward forward onto the PSP in its place. Try this https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/333089 Selwyn Selwyn It's not my field but someone told me it is actually the back seat that is in the front in this case. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Some drawings with nothing missing! John 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 minute ago, canberra kid said: Selwyn It's not my field but someone told me it is actually the back seat that is in the front in this case. John John , That wouldn't make a difference, the straps and pad arrangement would be the same for both the front and rear seats. There are definitely bits of safety equipment missing in that picture. (all the seat survival pack, parachute and straps are called collectively the seat safety equipment by the way, and is usually serviced independently of the actual seat.) Selwyn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 On 7/15/2017 at 04:21, canberra kid said: Some drawings with nothing missing! John Looking at the strap arrangement on these seat diagrams it looks like that this is the original strap arrangement that was modified probably around 1980 (ish) to long straps. (harriers were modified 1981) The original straps had Koch fasteners (seen in the first picture). The pilot wore what was called a combined harness which was a jacket affair and the koch fasteners were the parachute strap connectors that clipped onto the jacket in the upper chest area. this arrangement was common to of most RAF fast jet aircraft in the 1970's. if I recall pilots found it uncomfortable, and there were a few instances of one of the koch fasteners disconnecting on ejection, so in the early 1980's all aircraft had these type straps changed to long straps that reached down to the waist area and connected to a round quick release box. If you look at the original cockpit photographs you can see these long straps. Selwyn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 One more from the RN Phantom And Selwyn from the FGR.2 pilots notes John 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Not sure if this photo adds anything to the discussion but I'll include it anyway.. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Nice pictures John and Scimitar! I have been thinking about buying a boat and now I have found it Got to get one of these. It seems that using pictures from both FG.1 and FGR.2 Aircrew Manuals one can get the harness spot on. Am I right that AL 13 was the last FG.1 manual revision? My copy is also revised to that status. John, do you happen to have Flight Reference Cards for the British Phantom? Best Regards, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 11 hours ago, Antti_K said: Nice pictures John and Scimitar! I have been thinking about buying a boat and now I have found it Got to get one of these. It seems that using pictures from both FG.1 and FGR.2 Aircrew Manuals one can get the harness spot on. Am I right that AL 13 was the last FG.1 manual revision? My copy is also revised to that status. John, do you happen to have Flight Reference Cards for the British Phantom? Best Regards, Antti Me too Antti, I wouldn't mind her to help me crew it too I don't know for sure if it was the last version of the FG.1's pilots notes but I suspect so. I don't have the FRC's but I'm trying to get a copy if I do I'll let you know. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Fantastic stuff John! Thank you for sharing My copy of the FG.1 Aircrew Manual has only five parts (the fifth being cockpit illustrations) but no part six. So those illustrations you posted must come from another source. A Weapons Manual of some sort perhaps? I don't have the performance manual either but I do have that for the F-4J and F-4E. It would be really interesting to see the AN/APG-59 (radar) and AWG-10 (fire control system) manuals. I guess they are still kept in a vault... Best Regards, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Antti_K said: Fantastic stuff John! Thank you for sharing My copy of the FG.1 Aircrew Manual has only five parts (the fifth being cockpit illustrations) but no part six. So those illustrations you posted must come from another source. A Weapons Manual of some sort perhaps? I don't have the performance manual either but I do have that for the F-4J and F-4E. It would be really interesting to see the AN/APG-59 (radar) and AWG-10 (fire control system) manuals. I guess they are still kept in a vault... Best Regards, Antti Antti The weapons info is in here,(photo below) I have the performance AP but nothing on the radar other than what's covered in the weapons AP. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMP2 Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 That manual wouldnt happen to mention which of the 4 Sidewinder positions would fire first (assuming no errors during the firing sequence) would it? Or is it simple a case of manual selection by the pilot? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Wait a minute, wait a minute... I think either David Gledhill or Ian Black (both former RAF Phantom Navigators) discussed this in their Phantom books. All I have to do is to find that chapter. But there was a certain sequence if no alternative manual selections were made. Best Regards, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 2 hours ago, RMP2 said: That manual wouldnt happen to mention which of the 4 Sidewinder positions would fire first (assuming no errors during the firing sequence) would it? Or is it simple a case of manual selection by the pilot? I think it may well do, I will have a look, I'm off out soon so it may be tomorrow before I get chance though. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverkite211 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 On 7/6/2017 at 8:02 PM, Murph said: If I got into a visual fight, I would have punched the tanks off. The same was true back in Vietnam. Regards, Murph Tell that to Curtis Dose, he kept his centerline tank on his MiG killing mission of 10 May, 1972. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) On 8/3/2017 at 1:15 PM, silverkite211 said: Tell that to Curtis Dose, he kept his centerline tank on his MiG killing mission of 10 May, 1972. If you have a relevant point, feel free to make it. I'd be more than happy to discuss fighter tactics with Dose, based on my time actually flying fighters and instructing others on the subject. The standard in a visual fight was/is to get rid of any excessive weight and drag. Exceptions are just that: exceptions. Regards, Murph Edited August 6, 2017 by Murph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLC1966 Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Certainly the RAF Phantoms in Deci for ACMI had the Sgt & Fletcher wing tanks removed prior to playing games with the baddies. And the word around the street at Wildenrath was that if sent off for real, SOP for the jets would be afterburner to get up and punch the wing tanks off asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phone Phixer Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 On 7/15/2017 at 7:12 AM, RMP2 said: That manual wouldnt happen to mention which of the 4 Sidewinder positions would fire first (assuming no errors during the firing sequence) would it? Or is it simple a case of manual selection by the pilot? A bit late to the party with an answer to this. The standard firing sequence for the Sidewinders was:- left O/B, right O/B, left I/B, right I/B. The Sparrow/Skyflash sequence was:- left fwd, right fwd, left rear, right rear. If a centreline tank or recce pod was loaded the front 2 missiles couldn't be fired or jettisoned until the c/l store was jettisoned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phone Phixer Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 On 8/3/2017 at 11:15 AM, silverkite211 said: Tell that to Curtis Dose, he kept his centerline tank on his MiG killing mission of 10 May, 1972. 8 hours ago, Murph said: If you have a relevant point, feel free to make it. I'd be more than happy to discuss fighter tactics with Dose, based on my time actually flying fighters and instructing others on the subject. The standard in a visual fight was/is to get rid of any excessive weight and drag; exceptions are exceptions. Regards, Murph Don't know the circumstances of Curtis Dose's engagement of the MiG, or what missile he used. The missile of choice in Vietnam seemed to be the AIM7 Sparrow. With the centreline tank left on the aircraft the forward 2 AIM7's can't be used, as they would hit the tank on release. This would severely restrict the number of the favourite missiles for use in that situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now