RN Fg1 Phantom

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello all about to start my 1st british jet and im going with Hasegawas 1/48 scale Fg.1 Phantom. I will be attempting to get a village photo's account so i can try to do a WIP thread. I will be doing it in #892 Squadron markings originally was going to do a RAF #111 squadron. But the wife likes the royal navy colors better, so i will go with the Royal Navy. I will be doing aircraft serial # XT864. Aircraft 007. I can find photographs online of this plane im sure. Will do the plane right around 1975. I have some questions and im sure i will get the proper answers. 

     First did these phantoms have the RWR antennae's on the vertical stabilizer by this time frame ? Second did the Ark Royal do a cruise in 75-76 i may choose to build it with the nose gear extended and crewed up ? Three im planning on a 3 drop tank sky flash/sparrows and sidewinders for a load-out is this correct ? Fourth when i go to airbrush the color's on whats the best acrylic match for extra dark sea grey ?

     I cant get Gunze products here in the states so they're out of the line-up. Tamiya,Vallejo, Model Master acryl are what i have the best chance at getting. I know the callouts for the underside color are saying white. But is it truly white or a very light grey ? And any other tips or info you fellow Britmodeller's can think of would be graciously accepted.

     I  do have an F.3 lightning coming up just behind the Phantom so the RAF fans and #111 squadron don't need to feel left out. Of course if i see a better marking option. Maybe an green over bare metal from RAF Germany ? 

Well enough on this hope to hear from everyone thanks again. 

 

Dennis

[stever219]

Not sure about the RWR installation but Royal Navy Phantoms were, when newly painted, white underneath.  This tended to accumulate some grot and crud over time which tended to dull the finish.

 

A Sky Flash or Sparrows and Sidewinders weapons load is entirely practicable but the centreline tank could well be replaced by an SUU-23A gun pod.

 

111 Squadron only flew "silver" Lightnings and were never based in RAF Germany.  If you want Dark Green uppers and silver undersides on an RAFG Lightning you're looking at F. Mk. 2s or 2As or T. Mk. 4s of 19 and 92 Squadrons.  Visible differences between the Mk. 2 and 3 are shorter fuselage cable ducts and early "pointed" fin, rather than the later square-topped item, no guns on the Mk. 3, but 2 or 4 on the Mks. 2 and 2A, and a black cockpit interior in the earlier aeroplanes (Mk. 2 and 4) with Dark Admiralty Grey in the later marks (2A and 3).  Of course the 2A was a very different aeroplane, having the cambered wing of the F. Mk. 6, square-topped fin, runway arrestor hook and enlarged ventral fuel tank of that mark, but without provision to install a pair of ADENs in the front section.  One camouflaged Lightning (Dark Green and Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces with bare metal undersides) did wear 111 Squadron colours, but by that time the Squadron was a Phantom operator and the markings were applied for a short time only to commemorate 25 years of front-line service for the type.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Thanks steve

[RMP2]

I thought the gun pod was an RAF "thing" rather than navy?

I don't recall seeing any photos of the tail RWR fitted to navy FG1s either.

 

Could easily be wrong on both counts, best bet is to go by photos of the period and the aircraft itself if possible. Google images is my usual source for reference.

[Head in the clouds.]

The RN Phantoms were modified in the 70's with reference to the RWR therefore it would be prudent to find a picture of your build subject taken in the time frame you desire to model.

You will find pics here of 892SQ with the RWR :-

https://www.phantomf4k.org/image-gallery/892-squadron-f4k/category/6-892-squadron-phantom-f4k

With regard to the SU23 pod what RMP2 says about the subject does ring a bell .

 

 

[71chally]

The Navy didn't use the gunpod, unsure if this meant that FG.1s couldn't use them, or that it was just a Navy thing.

I think that that the RWR was fitted during 1975.

 

The Ark was certainly on a cruise in 1974- '76, I can access the ships Commissioning book with photographs for that if it comes in handy for you.

[Hook]

I don't think Sky Flash was used by the Royal Navy - the first missiles were delivered in 1978, AFAIK the Navy used Sparrow only as far as MRAAM's were concerned.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[71chally]

A quick trawl around the internet finds the '74 - '76 Commissioning book here, http://www.axfordsabode.org.uk/comishbk1.htm

Scroll down about half way and you can click and view all the pages, note most of the Phantoms have RWR fin tops.

 

There's some superb photos in there.

[stever219]

Thanks chaps; looks like I've had an uncontained catastrophic memory failure regarding the gun pod.  IIRC the new Airfix Royal Navy FG. 1 will have both early and RWR-fit fin tops when it (finally) arrives.

[Truro Model Builder]

Gun armament was not a requirement for the Royal Navy, so the FG.1 was not fitted with the capacity to carry the gun pod. This included the 14 that were delivered directly to the RAF to form No.43 Squadron. RAF Phantoms were purchased for ground attack duties, so the gun pod was an obvious weapon for the FGR.2. Once all FG.1s were transferred to the RAF they were equipped with gun pod capability as they went through maintenance,upgrade etc.

 

As regards Skyflash, Hook is quite correct. It was first delivered to the RAF for use on the Phantom in 1978, but no RN Phantoms were ever equipped with it. The AIM-7E remained the standard medium range weapon throughout the FG.1s service in the FAA.

 

stever219: You are correct; the Airfix FG.1 will feature both styles of fin top.

Edited July 6, 2017 by T7 Models

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

First off A hearty Thanks to all. That have chimed in. The info will come in quite handy. Does anyone have an option for the extra Dark sea grey question ? And does anyone know if the cockpit colors were stock F-4 Phantom from the factory or did they use a color like dark admiralty grey or black like they did in the lightnings ? Again i say thanks to all of you and thats why i joined BM to begin with. 

 

Dennis

[Head in the clouds.]

With regard to the EDSG it is my understanding ( and I will be happy to be corrected) that RN Phantoms were in fact Dark Sea Grey when delivered and as they went through maintenance they were given a anti corrosion covering in EDSG which may explain why they seem to be that particular colour. If you can get your hands on this months SAM it will explain it in more detail but it is an emotive subject.

Hope this helps.

[tempestfan]

7 hours ago, T7 Models said:

Gun armament was not a requirement for the Royal Navy, so the FG.1 was not fitted with the capacity to carry the gun pod. ... RAF Phantoms were purchased for ground attack duties, ...

 

As regards Skyflash, ...

Not doubting that, but the G in the Navy birds indicates they had ground attack duties as well - interesting the requirements differed that much in this respect. I could imagine a number of uses for a flying chainsaw in a maritime environment, like small patrol craft. 

 

How big is the external difference between E Sparrow and Skyflash?  IIRC the latter had a prominent cable duct, but was otherwise very similar. 

[stever219]

If you can find a distributor in the colonies who stocks Xtracrylix (acrylic) paints they do Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Sea Grey.  A quick google of XV424, currently resident at RAFM Hendon suggests that the cockpits are in the US-specified Gull Gray

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Thanks stever not sure but i think i can get Xtracrylix. Will look into it. Good to know i can go standard cockpit color. Looks like sparrows it is. 

[Murph]

Three tanks and 8 missiles might be a bit heavy for carrier ops takeoff and/or "bring back".  You might want to check pictures and take note of how many tanks they were using while on the boat.  The Brit Phantoms did seem to use wing tanks much more than U.S. Phantoms, which favored the centerline tank only configuration for logistical reasons.

 

Regards,

Murph  

[Darby]

I've never seen a centreline gun pod on a Pusser's Phantom. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

I just had to add this.....

 

[Des]

From everything that I have read on UK Phantoms dating back to when they first entered service it seems that the gun pod was used solely by the RAF including from my rather hazy memories of RAF Leuchars Airshows of the day those FG.1 re-directed to 43 Sqn. from very early in their service well before the rest of the fleet were withdrawn from Royal Navy service and adapted to carry it as well.

 

I have a vague recollection that the Navy did not use the gun pod for the same electrical safety issues aboard carriers that led to the FG.1 carrying the standard subsonic rated 2" Rocket Pods already in use on other  naval types rather than the supersonic rated 18 Tube 68mm Matra 155 Pods favoured by the RAF.

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Yes ive already looked at the three Ark Royal cruise books? Mentioned above by 71chally. Not sure if thats the correct terminology. Two Wing tanks seems the norm from all the photo's i saw. So im going with that configuration. My loadout question in the original post was just a guesstimate. Though there are quite a few variations on painting the drop tanks. And i think i will do a mixed set as multiple photo's show that common. I may not even go with 4 sidewinders just 2 on the inner rails of each mount. as this seemed a common theme in the photo's as well. Scimatar beautiful just watched the video. Very good and interesting as ive seen the same thing live from priflight and vultures row on the U.S.S. Forrestal in 1990. Only differences were types of aircraft. Tomcats, Vikings, corsair 2's, and intruders.  Thanks to all and good day.

 

Dennis

[silverkite211]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

 The Brit Phantoms did seem to use wing tanks much more than U.S. Phantoms, which favored the centerline tank only configuration for logistical reasons.

 

Regards,

Murph  

It wasn't just a matter of logistics, the Navy found that they could pull slightly more 'G' in a dogfight when using the centerline tank versus two wing tanks, with a slight reduction of fuel (600 gal centerline versus 740 gals in the two wing tanks).

[Antti_K]

Hello Dennis.

 

I built XT861 "003" out of Hasegawa's kit. My chosen time frame was Ark Royal's 1971 cruise. Some notes I made during research:

 

- the kit is an FG.1 (check the location of Door 62 to see it yourself)

- originally FG.1s were painted with a colour closer to Dark Sea Grey than Extra Dark Sea Grey (actually all McDonald documents mention Dark Sea Grey) and Insignia White

- Dark Sea Grey faded very quickly and white looked more like cream; check photos and compare roundel white with under surfaces white

- the original factory "Painting Guide" for FG.1 is available online

- if you put the crew in and use the extended nose gear then you should also open the flaps (leading edge and trailing edge)

- at times RN Phantoms were parked on deck with nose gear extended

- the most common fit during 1971 was centerline tank and inboard pylons. Many photos show bombs or rocket pods but no missiles

- first RWR unit was mounted during 1974

- wing tanks and centerline tanks were originally white but they got re-painted with EDSG starting early 1970s

- the underwing serials were re-positioned whenever the aircraft was re-painted; they were moved further inward

 

You can find pictures of my "North Sea GT Sports Model" here on Britmodeller.

 

 

Hope this helps, even a bit

 

Antti

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Antti ... yes very much it does help. Im currently trying to decide on the crew option. As i dont have the extended leading edge slats. And am wondering if i want to go thru the trouble of scratchbuilding them. 

 

Thanks 

Dennis

[Murph]

2 hours ago, silverkite211 said:

It wasn't just a matter of logistics, the Navy found that they could pull slightly more 'G' in a dogfight when using the centerline tank versus two wing tanks, with a slight reduction of fuel (600 gal centerline versus 740 gals in the two wing tanks).

 

If I got into a visual fight, I would have punched the tanks off.  The same was true back in Vietnam.

 

Regards,

Murph

[Navy Bird]

On 7/5/2017 at 18:29, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

     I cant get Gunze products here in the states so they're out of the line-up.

 

Hi Dennis,

 

You can get Gunze products in the states. I use a seller on eBay called Animetropolis. Mr. Hobby Aqueous Colors, GSI Acrysion, and Mr. Color are all $3.40 a bottle and the shipping is free - even though the seller is in Taiwan. I receive my shipments (I'm in New York State) in about a week and a half. They also have all the Gunze thinners, Mr This and Mr That, and even the special Gundum colours.

 

Also, I saw in this thread that the British Phantoms had the standard US cockpit colour of "Gull Gray" - pretty sure that should be "Dark Gull Gray, FS36231."

 

Cheers,

Bill