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Potez 29 - scratch conversion from Broplan's XXV with two others '25 by Hit-Kit in background


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Hi 

It is like that that Potez XXV and Breguet 19 are in a way coupled machines. From begining they were competiting and still if you think on one of them you immediately have to think on the second one. Since I am just about to finish construction of TWO Breguets out of a SINGLE Hit-kit kit I started to construct Potez XXV family. In my stash I have three of them: 

1. Hit Kit Potez 25 TOE

2. Hit Kit Potez 25 Jupiter

3. Broplan Potez 25 A2 (Lorrain engine)

 

However,  I think that doing three Potez XXV could be a bit too much. Therfore I decided to to do:

1. Vichy from Indochina - P. XXV TOE (almost OOB if this term can be used in case of Hit-kit kit)

120_1.jpg

2. Spanish Republican P. XXV Jupiter - ex-Estonian (as above, however this paointing scheme is not included in box)

75_1.jpg

3. Scratch conversion to Potez 29 made with use of wings and some more parts from Broplan 25 A2. 

 

21_1.jpg

 

Here the painting scheme is from Marocco, 1943, but I have two others schemes  in some French journal or booklet. Not decided yet which exactly I will do. 

There is a resin kit of this machine by Lift Here, but why not play with scratch a bit?

 

potez DSC06002potez DSC06001

The fuselage is winder and therfore the wingspand rised from 14.15m to 14.60m (in other sources 14.50 m)

potez DSC06003

Therefore I have to cut the wing. The whole central part will be re-worked anyway...

 

potez DSC06036

 

So As you see I started like playing 3NT in bridge. From the most difficult colour... 

Cheers

J-W

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MItch, thank you for interest in this. I am inspired by some similar work which I noticed in Net at some French forum. 

Those two painting schemes I am thinking about are both Free French, one is green with this funny narrow B/W invasion strips (I think it is from Europe - ???) socond is alu with blue Lotarin crosses (from Chad). In both cases I do not have photos - would be nice to have. I have some photos for machines in  Syria (even one RAF) and of course a lot of them from before WWII times.

Regards

J-W

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Hello JWM,

And, are you actually doing it at the 1/144 ???

Or did remaster the plans ?

Nice job whatever.

Sincerely.

corsaircorp

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6 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Hello JWM,

And, are you actually doing it at the 1/144 ???

Or did remaster the plans ?

Nice job whatever.

Sincerely.

corsaircorp

Thank you - No it is 1:72! The plan from some French journal is just enlarged on xero machine by factor of two . I am only doing 1:72 models so it is so much obvious for me that I did not mentioned it, sorry...

Cheers

J-W 

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Thanks for comments,

I made a resin copy of engine from Broplan Potrz XXV A2. The engine covers are different (in 29 are  a bit conic if you look from top. I will do this but I think this is a good base:

potez DSC06051

 

potez DSC06052

 

I started to convert wing with assumetric window

potez DSC06053

 

The windows on sides I will do just by masking an a transparent part, I cut out some windows from a chocolade box using electric mikro saw

potez DSC06055

I will sand it (together with transparent part)

just to make connections invisible (I hope so)

potez DSC06060

 

Meanwhile I started insides of two Potez 25:

potez DSC06059

 

And exhaust pipes for '25 TOE:

potez DSC06058

 

BTW - Model by Lift here has French and RAF version also:

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania potez 29Podobny obraz

 

And here is thread on paper scratch build of Potez 29, which inspired me

http://maquette72.free.fr/amis/GMazon/2010_099_potez29/index_gilles_potez29_99.php

To be continued

Cheers

J-W

 

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Hi,

more carefully look at existing photos convienced me, that the window on upper wing of Potez 29 is not assymetric as on my drawing, but normal, symmetric. So I will have to corrects it. Meanwhile i did very limited progress mostly on isides of XXVs:

(one I made with open rear seat, another with folden

potez DSC06063

BTW - very important. The HIt kit has inside of done exactly in 1/72, not taking into account that walls of fuselage in model are much bigger that are in real thing. So all inside is actually scratch work using some kit parts

  

Edited by JWM
misprint corr.
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Hi,

The Hit-kit Potez XXV Jupiter engine version has fuselages moulded (with error in design) for Skoda-Jupiter Polish version  (with Towdent ring) whereas ring-less varainat is made as option - one have to cut front of fuselage and glue on it new front. Why I said that design is with error. The model mould has fairing behind engine in cylindrical form, with step. In fact the fairing had more smooth, fading fairing which come to fuselage without any step. I hope it can be noticed from this photo:

potez DSC06106

 

This was only a academic remark. I am doing Bristol Jupiter version from Spain, without any fairing or ring. Here some progress for fuselages of two Potez XXV by HIT Kit

 

potez DSC06111potez DSC06110potez DSC06109

And some progress on fuselage of Potez 29

 

potez DSC06108potez DSC06112

To be cont.

Cheers

J-W

 

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The Internet is great! After few days of diging in net I have found photos of interior of Potez 29

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania potez 29 cockpit

 

This is from Lift-Here resin kit instruction... Surprising, thereare seats for two pilots and 5 passangers - 7 people on board! It looks that no side windows in cockpit. I have to check it on other photos. Anyway -  I can move on.

Cheers

J-W 

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Hi 

This is a photo I have found in net for Potez 29 of FAFL from Africa (Chad)

29-DU-GC1-PILOTEé-PAR

And here profiles from French ournal Ailes de France No8....

DSC06142

 

I think that in lower case on wings we have French roundles (cocards) and Lorraine crosses inside. The ambulance is more tricky...I asked question on WWII part of BM. We will see.

 

And progress for today:

potez DSC06196

 

 

 to be cont.

Cheers

J-W

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BTW - on this photo

29-DU-GC1-PILOTEé-PAR

There is some two tone pattern I think - not monochrome as on profiles. The most dark areas are shadows from wings and tailplane, but they goes at narrow angle. So the dark part below fin in fuselage and two other dark places - right from Lorrine cross and below pilot cockpit looks in different colour than the light areas. What colours they could be? I think rather RAF ones then pre-war French?

Cheers

J-W 

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That's a difficult question J-W, but I have to agree with you. It's an awkward photograph, but it doesn't support a single upper surface colour.

 

From where, which nation, did these Potez 29's originate? What was their original military purpose and allegiance?

 

I'll search for photos J-W.

Best regards 

TonyT

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Thank you Tony,

I think (but not sure) that  they were moved from Syria to Chad. At least for some time they should wear ME Vichy variant - yellow tail and front (?). This could explain stright line demarcating colours below fin - the overpainted yellow on fuselage. But the fin is of different colour. Blenhaims of FAFL this unit are presented DG/DE - so rather not painted on site...

Cheers

J-W

 

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I asked a question on WWII forum obout insignia on wings. 

There are also few more pictures for FAFL machines.

There is interesting machine from Paris, January '45, and this was not taken in museum...:

potz 29

Moreover - here is photo showing a small assymetry of position of window/hatch on top of wing:

potez 29 image049

to be cont.

J-W

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I add today some stuff like chairs etc inside:

potez DSC06199

 

more or less dummy of cockpit

potez DSC06197

 

I made a bit on wings: lower are trimmed to give 14.5 cm (10.445 m in real machine), upper  has restored ribs

potez DSC06200

 

It needs sanding to get final look

 

I am preparing pieces of styrene for glasses of windscreen. I am using old Gilette 5-blades pack - they are nicely transparent and thin

I cut out some surfaces to start work on this:

potez DSC06201

 

 

This is already checked technology :)

to be cont.

Cheers

J-W

 

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Hi

Today I made in Potez 25 glassing - six elements glued together (first by clearfix, then I added some CA gleu) then sanded

potez DSC06202

 

I agree - it looks awfull. However after adding glass varnish it is better:

potez DSC06208

One have to wait for complete drying of varnish.

 

About Potez 25. First of all I have to say again that one (25 TOE) is from late production of Hit-kit and the plastic has strange mechanical preperties. It does not sand properly (some fibers appears) and is very fragile - one lower wing was in 5 parts, another in 3.... 

Please compare the same frame:

potez DSC06207

 

 

left is for radial variant right for TOE. Some part are broken....A lot of sunk surfaces/

General remark - this model you have to sand over all surfaces. They are coarse.But after a gently sanding of surface a nice appears...

I have to drawings for Potez 25 - one Polish another French. When I gleued already lower wings I found that comparing to both plans each lower wing has largen span fro a single rib. 

 

potez DSC06203

 

So I have to break them apart and cut one rib section of each, and made new cut near fuselage

 

potez DSC06204

 

potez DSC06205

 

The fin and rudder looks OK, but tailpane has wrong proportions and shapes. I cut out control surfaces and will work on this soon

potez DSC06206

To be cont.

Cheers

J-W

 

 

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That's a very nice photograph from the rear of the air-ambulance J-W.

 

The window in the top wing appears to be within a symmetrical almost triangular panel, but the rectangular window itself is to the starboard side of this panel, if that makes sense?

 

Another thing that is interesting; the upper wing top surface is quite smooth, the ribs don't show very much at all, whereas the lowing wing top'surface has very pronounced rib tapes.

 

Regarding the Hit-Kit Potez sprues/plastic; one of mine has nearly every small component hardly there; just a sea of brittle flash. The upper wing bent and burned/bubbled. Very brittle. The other, a TOE, is like yours to the left, just fine!

 

I have two of their Potez 27 kits; these are both ok.

 

I think the Potez 25's have nice photo-etch spoked wheels in there?

 

Rather than provide a little axle tube for the wheel, I think the instructions suggest glueing around six tiny rings together to form a tiny tube! Quite ingenious, but tricky :o.

 

I'll never look at my razor blade trays in the same way again; nice recycling :thumbsup:!

 

Best regards

TonyT

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33 minutes ago, TonyTiger66 said:

The window in the top wing appears to be within a symmetrical almost triangular panel, but the rectangular window itself is to the starboard side of this panel, if that makes sense?

Indeed! I am thinking: is it a window or a hatch also? This is not done in Lift here model 

 

Thank you for all comments. I think that XXVII was more limited in production (the model of course) and therefore the moulds were not so badly exhausted...Mine Jupiter diven XXV has not at all sank surfaces nor bubles. All parts looks OK. It is not the case of second one.

 

Cheers

J-W

 

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I'm wondering how they could create a hatch given the wing rib structure there?

 

I'm trying to imagine how an engineer would approach it.

 

It requires someone that remembers them, or a written account.

 

Your 1/144 plan looks correct for the 'outer' edge of the smaller frame around a rectangular window. Missing from the 1/144 plan is the larger triangle shaped panel (line? Join ? Change in materials?).

 

The aft corners of this are, it appears, in line with the wing ribs most parallel to the top fuselage longeron, on each side.

 

It then angles in forwards.

 

I think, if we imagine conditions inside the ambulance, perhaps it is to let light in from above, to help the nurses see what they were doing when the aircraft gets light from different angles; or light is poor in heavy cloud?

 

Knowing hospitals/ambulances, I would guess there was a blind that could be pulled over it to allow severely ill patients to rest; the side windows too.

 

It's conjecture; I'm just trying to figure out what it would be like in there; what the 'ideal' interior design for this air ambulance would be to enable it to save lives, given the technology of the time?

 

What are those things behind this roof window J-W, the things that look like two huge door knobs? Are they roof mounted external lights?

 

Best regards

TonyT

 

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4 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

'm wondering how they could create a hatch given the wing rib structure there?

 

I'm trying to imagine how an engineer would approach it.

 

It requires someone that remembers them, or a written account.

 

Your 1/144 plan looks correct for the 'outer' edge of the smaller frame around a rectangular window. Missing from the 1/144 plan is the larger triangle shaped panel (line? Join ? Change in materials?).

 

The aft corners of this are, it appears, in line with the wing ribs most parallel to the top fuselage longeron, on each side.

 

It then angles in forwards.

Thanks Tony for anaysing. Likely this is not hatch - you are right, the ribs must go there. However, of course they could do a kind of box or frame wchich will work as structural elment and cut out ribs on this part. I think that this window could move to left side (in position of photo) - there is a kind of rail behind it, it this will explain why it is assymetric. This is above pilot section, not passangers. Originaly this was a passanger machine, so the crew and passangers were separated. Therfore it was not giving light for nurse but for second pilot who was also navigating! So this is a kind of primitive precursor of astrodome I guess. Second pilot can open it, put head above and navigate following stars (or sun). The triangular structure on front of is a spoiler which prevent air to jump inside cockpit area. It could be also a keystone-shape, we do not  see front of it. 

The two objects behind window are I think the ventilation tool - it looks that they have a hole in the end, perhaps also at front.  Early passanger machines have ventilation tools on roof very frequently.

 

Yesterday I have found in net (some Spanish sweb site?) photos of inside in case of ambulance. There are two beds for transportation (not three like in thread wchich inspired me) one above another on left side. 

 

potez29-1 (2)potez29-3-1024x777potez29-2-1024x520

But I rather go for liason

Cheers

J-W

 

Edited by JWM
correction of error in word keystone
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Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania free french airforces potez

 

This is interestig FAFL liason machine from Egipt. Dark green overall with silver nose, so no doubts. Lorrine crosess blue

Cheers

J-W

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Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania free french airforces potez

 

This is interestig FAFL liason machine from Egipt. Dark green overall with silver nose, so no doubts. Lorrine crosess blue

 

 

EDIT:

Next finding - here is view  from top on two Potez 25 (left) and one 29 (top). Pleae note the shape of tailplane - different then in mine drawing! The window on wing is very well seen

040a.jpg

 

Cheers

J-W

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Hi,

Two days ago I went to library of Museum of Polish Aviation in Krakow. Found there some interesting French books on French aviation in Indochina and in Chad. A lot of colorful schemes for both 25 TOE and 29 from Vichy governed Indochina. Very temptainting in case of Potez 29. However after thinking a while I will rather keep the idea of FAFL paintings for '29. BTW - I have found there very interesting photos of Bloch 120 in FAFL colours...Since far I;ve seen only civil markings of Air Afrique. 

With models I;ve got some progress.

First 29:

potez DSC06220potez DSC06221

And I started to work on tail:

potez DSC06226

 

Potez 25 Bristol Jupiter

potez DSC06212

 

potez DSC06211

Potez 25 TOE

 

potez DSC06213

 

This is what I ment about lower wings brokenings:

potez DSC06216

 

potez DSC06215potez DSC06214potez DSC06217

I am trying to retsore surface details after glueing and  sanding

potez DSC06224

 

Of more nicer work - I started to detailed nose. This is a white metal part - I drilled it out and glued in back side a metal tube (from old watch belt after removing spring from inside)

 

 

potez DSC06218

 

 

potez DSC06219

As you can see I put a plastic rod insiode secured with two cups to enable prop rotating amd to make possible later position of prop

 

 

After seting on position and some sanding

potez DSC06222

 

 

BTW - first time I deal with so callled "white metal". I am physicist, so I am interesting what exactly it is. Can anybody tell me composition? 

 

I started to work on modified tailplane:

 

potez DSC06223

 

potez DSC06227

 

To be cont.

Cheers J-W

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