Finnish Air Force Blenheim questions.

[Vinnie]

I found an old Revell Mk1/1F Blenheim kit on the bay which has a Finnish Air Force option. The decals provided are blue roundels which I assume should be blue on grey swastikas? My main questions concern the dorsal turret and the camouflage colours. When I compare the kit turret to a photo of a Blenheim in the Finnish aviation museum, they are completely different. The Museum example has a much lower turret than the kit. Can any Blenheim experts tell me if this is a different Mark aircraft? The cammo in the museum example looks like it's an olive/black combination on top with grey underneath as opposed to Revell's suggestions of greenish grey/black with light green lower. 

Thanks for any advice.

[mhaselden]

The Blenheim turret was raised and lowered by the gunner as he, respectively, depressed or elevated the gun(s).  Thus the same turret can appear taller or shorter. 

 

For Finnish markings, the roundels were a later type of marking to replace the earlier hakaristi (a blue "swastika") on a white circle.  I believe undersurfaces would either be painted aluminium, pale blue or pale grey.

Edited July 3, 2017 by mhaselden

[Panoz]

6 hours ago, Vinnie said:

I found an old Revell Mk1/1F Blenheim kit on the bay which has a Finnish Air Force option. The decals provided are blue roundels which I assume should be blue on grey swastikas?

The cammo in the museum example looks like it's an olive/black combination on top with grey underneath as opposed to Revell's suggestions of greenish grey/black with light green lower. 

 

That's the exact aircraft that Revell's decals depict:

 

 

Note that post WWII, Blenheims were operated in second line roles only, therefore if you build BL-188 with the Revell markings, external bomb racks and skis should NOT be fitted. The Revell kit is a rebox of a Frog kit from 1968 which gave you markings for a Winter War Finnish Blenheim (hakaristi et al) hence their inclusion...

 

Ignore Revell's instructions; the preserved aircraft's colours & markings are accurate.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Panoz

[Antti_K]

Hello Vinnie!

 

Finnish Blenheims carried four different paint schemes between 1930s and early 1950s.

 

At first the Mk.1s were painted with dark green (tummanvihreä) overall except for wing and stabilator under surfaces which were aluminium or light gray (alumiinipronssi).

 

Second paint scheme was the familiar British camouflage (Dark Earth/ Dark Green/ Night). These aircraft carried interesting markings when they were first delivered: the national markings were over painted (only white discs) and on top of these temporary black civilian register markings (for example OH-IPA).

 

Then came the so called "War Paint" (sotamaalaus) with olive green (oliivinvihreä) and black (musta) top surfaces and light blue (DN -väri, close to RLM 65) under surfaces. At the beginning of Continuation War (Jatkosota) in 1941 yellow "East Front" bands were painted around rear fuselage and wing tips (under sides) were also painted with yellow. During Continuation War it was ordered that the discs of national insignias should be toned down with DN -väri or light gray. I have an original factory "camouflage drawing" for Blenheim's sotamaalaus.

 

Some interesting experimental national insignias were researched during the war. For example a swastika with thin white outline only and a blue swastika alone were painted on some Blenheims.

 

Note that Blenheims built in Finland had their interiors painted with gray; not the usual Aircraft Gray Green.

 

The final paint scheme emerged after the war. The few remaining Blenheims were painted with aluminium overall. At that time these planes carried the "new" blue and white Finnish Roundels.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

Best

[72modeler]

I might be wrong, but I don't believe any Finnish Blenheim Mk 1's were still in first line service when the national insignia changed from a blue swastika on a white disk to the blue/white roundel, as the roundel insignia was adopted on  March 1, 1945. (At least I haven't seen any photos of Mk 1's with the blue/white roundel.) The Blenheim Mk IV was still in use postwar, so could have been seen with the swastika or blue/white roundel, depending upon if they photographed before or after March, 1945. My Finnish reference books are not at hand, but if you have the squadron and/or serial of the Mk 1 you want to build, I can probably find a photo of it. If a Mk 1 was still in service after March, 1945, it would have been most likely painted with the olive green/black uppersurfaces and sky grey undersurfaces, along with the blue/white roundels replacing the blue/white swastika insignia.

 

Prior to and during the Winter War, Blenheim I's were painted with dark green uppersurfaces, FS34079) and sky grey undersurfaces, FS36463. During the Continuation War, they would have been finished in olive green, FS34096, black, FS37038 uppersurfaces, with sky grey, FS36463, undersurfaces. They would also have had yellow recognition markings, FS13538, applied as a 50cm wide band around the rear fuselage and under the wingtips, the width being 1/6 of the span.

 

This information was taken from Kari Stenman and Kalevi Keskinen's Finnish Air Force Camouflage and Markings. I hope this will be helpful.

 

Mike

Edited July 3, 2017 by 72modeler
added FS equivalents

[Panoz]

5 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

I might be wrong, but I don't believe any Finnish Blenheim Mk 1's were still in service when the national insignia changed from a blue swastika on a white disk to the blue/white roundel, as the roundel insignia was adopted on  March 1, 1945. (At least I haven't seen any photos of Mk 1's with the blue/white roundel.)

 

Did you see the photo that I posted? It was taken in 1947. That's the exact aircraft that Revell's markings depict.

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/122565-revell-04102-blenheim-mk-i-if

 

And BTW the last MkIs were retired in 1957...

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Panoz
link added

[Antti_K]

A Mark One indeed Panoz! The picture is taken at Tikkakoski AB: in front of hangar 1. The base was originally built for Blenheims just before the war.

 

The new Finnish roundel was painted to every aircraft, serviceable or not. I believe (not sure) that only Blenheims that flew either target towing or aerial survey missions after the war were painted with aluminium.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

[72modeler]

30 minutes ago, Panoz said:

 

Did you see the photo that I posted? It was taken in 1947. That's the exact aircraft that Revell's markings depict.

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/122565-revell-04102-blenheim-mk-i-if

 

And BTW the last MkIs were retired in 1957...

 

Panoz,

 

Sorry- I didn't see your post until after   I had  submitted my comments; in my defense, I didn't say a Mk 1 wasn't in service or in those markings after 1945- I just commented that I hadn't seen a photo of one. Your post is one of the reasons why BM is such a godsend to modelers- there is always somebody out there who has better or more information or references, as the photo you attached proves. Thanks for sharing it.

Mike.

[Wm Blecky]

You might want to take a look at the SBS Models website.  Csaba has several decal sheets for Finnish Blenheims.  A look at the decal's instructions and you can pick up some interesting details.  HTH.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Wm Blecky

[Vinnie]

I continue to be amazed at the knowledge, and the willingness to share that knowledge on this forum. Thank you all for such comprehensive replies. I shall spend some time re-reading this thread before deciding on the build as there seem to be more options available than I had realised. 

Thanks again everybody.

[Vinnie]

13 hours ago, Wm Blecky said:

You might want to take a look at the SBS Models website.  Csaba has several decal sheets for Finnish Blenheims.  A look at the decal's instructions and you can pick up some interesting details.  HTH.

 

Thanks for the information. I did as you suggested and have ordered a decal set. I agree, the brief write-ups are interesting and informative.

 

17 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Hello Vinnie!

 

Finnish Blenheims carried four different paint schemes between 1930s and early 1950s.

 

At first the Mk.1s were painted with dark green (tummanvihreä) overall except for wing and stabilator under surfaces which were aluminium or light gray (alumiinipronssi).

 

Second paint scheme was the familiar British camouflage (Dark Earth/ Dark Green/ Night). These aircraft carried interesting markings when they were first delivered: the national markings were over painted (only white discs) and on top of these temporary black civilian register markings (for example OH-IPA).

 

Then came the so called "War Paint" (sotamaalaus) with olive green (oliivinvihreä) and black (musta) top surfaces and light blue (DN -väri, close to RLM 65) under surfaces. At the beginning of Continuation War (Jatkosota) in 1941 yellow "East Front" bands were painted around rear fuselage and wing tips (under sides) were also painted with yellow. During Continuation War it was ordered that the discs of national insignias should be toned down with DN -väri or light gray. I have an original factory "camouflage drawing" for Blenheim's sotamaalaus.

 

Some interesting experimental national insignias were researched during the war. For example a swastika with thin white outline only and a blue swastika alone were painted on some Blenheims.

 

Note that Blenheims built in Finland had their interiors painted with gray; not the usual Aircraft Gray Green.

 

 

15

That's very helpful Antti, thank you. I have decided to go with the Sotamaalaus scheme and thanks to a suggestion from Wm Becky have found a suitable decal set which includes the toned down Swastikas.

[mhaselden]

Vinnie,

 

You might want to go to this website:

 

http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneoeng

 

Enter "Blenheim" as the search criteria and hit "Show" - you'll get a whole bunch of Finnish Blenheim pics, including some really nice colour shots.

 

Just a note that the Finnish markings are not "swastikas".  They are hakaristi.  There is some sensitivity over associating Finland with the Nazi regime (the latter, of course, did use the Swastika as its emblem).

 

HTH,

Mark

[Max Headroom]

One other thing to note on the photo posted above, is that the port wing had a protruding double lamp installation in the leading edge. As far as I am aware, no RAF examples had this so if using the Frog/Revell Mk.I then you need to scratch one out of the spares box and clear sprue.

 

Trevor

[Vinnie]

1 hour ago, mhaselden said:

Vinnie,

 

You might want to go to this website:

 

http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneoeng

 

Enter "Blenheim" as the search criteria and hit "Show" - you'll get a whole bunch of Finnish Blenheim pics, including some really nice colour shots.

 

Just a note that the Finnish markings are not "swastikas".  They are hakaristi.  There is some sensitivity over associating Finland with the Nazi regime (the latter, of course, did use the Swastika as its emblem).

 

HTH,

Mark

Thank you for the link. There are indeed some very nice pictures through the whole site. 

 

I did hesitate over using the 'S' word but on the assumption that Antti is Finnish and had also used it made me think it shouldn't be a problem. You are quite correct though, sensitivities should be observed and respected. 

[Vinnie]

1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

One other thing to note on the photo posted above, is that the port wing had a protruding double lamp installation in the leading edge. As far as I am aware, no RAF examples had this so if using the Frog/Revell Mk.I then you need to scratch one out of the spares box and clear sprue.

 

Trevor

Thanks, Trevor. I had already noticed that. One of the reasons I've bought a few of these old kits is to practice some scratch building and experiment with different filling materials and techniques without breaking the bank. I do quite like this old kit though so every effort will be made not to mess it up.

[mhaselden]

33 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

Thank you for the link. There are indeed some very nice pictures through the whole site. 

 

I did hesitate over using the 'S' word but on the assumption that Antti is Finnish and had also used it made me think it shouldn't be a problem. You are quite correct though, sensitivities should be observed and respected. 

 

Thanks Vinnie.  Antti, like most folks here, is pretty laid back.  I take the view that, given the time and attention we devote to ensuring a kit is accurately detailed, painted and decalled, we should at least take the time to call things by their correct names.  I know that I'm being a bit pedantic but I'm a huge fan of the friendly, welcoming atmosphere here on BM.  We're all here to learn and improve at the hobby we love.

 

I wish you the best of luck with your build.  I always liked the Frog Blenheim, indeed I still have a couple of MPM boxings in my stash. 

[Graham Boak]

The swastika shape predated the Nazi regime, by at least one millennium.  The Finns are entitled to use whatever word they like in their own language, and their sensitivity is understandable, but the English word is "swastika".  If any individual wants to follow the Finnish practice that's also fine, but it is not acceptable to restrict the entirely proper use of the existing English term for the shape.

[mhaselden]

To say "swastika" is an English word is something of a stretch given its Sanskrit origins (and the word replaces an earlier Greek-derived term gammadion).  Since we're talking about Finnish markings on a Finnish-owned aircraft, I think it entirely appropriate to use the Finnish term for the marking.  After all, Luftwaffe aficionados liberally use the term balkenkreuz when referring to those national markings. 

 

All I'm saying is that, for obvious reasons, the word swastika has all sorts of negative overtones and associations.  Not everyone here is as well-informed as you about the origins of the symbol and hence use of precise, accurate language helps avoid unnecessary misunderstandings. 

 

Anyhoo...enough of this and let's get back to the Blenheim.

[Graham Boak]

Not a stretch at all.  There are many, many words in English that came in from somewhere else.  Although true of other languages, probably all other languages, it is noted as being particularly common in English and considered as a feature of the language that arguably explains its vitality.  After perhaps some initial stage when they do appear odd, then they are adopted and are correctly considered part of the language.  That initial stage is a long time back for the swastika.

 

I've no objection to hakaristi, balkenkreuz or hinomaru in context, I may even use them myself, but this is a matter of "colour" rather than "accuracy".  It is entirely accurate in English to refer to the Finnish markings as a swastika on a disc.  That some people are ignorant of history is no reason to apply censorship - if anything let them learn something.   As a comparison, Germany bans the use of swastikas on model aircraft as part of a ban on the public display of the political symbol, but this does not mean that they are banned in all other countries.   Individuals are free to use them on their models, or not, as desired.  (Whether they are then permitted to display them in public may be another matter.)

 

To get back to the matter of Blenheims: can I raise the point of a difference in terminology that may be leading to some confusion?  An aircraft may be in service, without being in front-line service.  The latter implies a combat role, the former does not.   It may appear unlikely to me, too, that Mk.Is still existed in a combat role in 1945, but I can't confirm that from my knowledge.  However, it seems to me that there will have existed, in the immediate post-war period, Mk.I Blenheims in camouflage that were not serving in the front line.  Perhaps in training units?  If only because it takes time to adopt a new scheme for these aircraft, and it cannot happen overnight to all survivors of the fleet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

About BL-183 (or -188? Don't have my reading glasses handy) shown in the picture above. It is not Mk I. It is sarja V Finnish-made short nose Blenheim. There are quite a many detail differencies and no kit readily represents it. Olive Green black uppersides, matt light blue unders. Remarkably neat cocade surroundings. Usually these show overpainting of the pre 1945 swastika insiginias. If wholly repainted (not very likely!) post-war, underside might have been light grey too. I do not have Blenheim individual document recordings availalble so cannot say anything sure.

 

Of the FinnAF Blenheim camo. Antti K describes them, but did not emphasize that camo depended the batch (or sarja as called in Finnish) individual Blenheim was from. For example RAF Dark Eerth/Dark Green camo was only on sarja IV (BL-134-145). This batch was the 12 additional short nose Blenheims received during Winter War. These can be kitted with Airfix Mk I as they conformed to RAF specification. Time passing this changed quite a lot sometimes. Camo too.

 

The original Finnish camo for sarja I short nose Blenheims  bought in 1936 (BL-104-121) was Olive Green (Khaki, actually) with Aluminium wing and horizontal tail undersides. See thread below:

Sarja III Blenheims (BL-122-133) were long nose Blenheim IV apparently with at least some Finnish specified equipment. Camo was same as the Sarja I. Sarja III can be kitted from Airfix Mk IV. least BL-125 had quite a bright interior green shade. See for more in this thread/post:

 

Addenda: In the thread below I write BL-198 (sarja VI long nose) interior green could be Yugoslavian paint (this one:  

NOT! I have learnt since that all long nose pieces for sarja VI were manufacured in Finland. Only the manufacutring jig for them was from Ikarus (?) and it may have been modified. So the green paint is from Finland. Might be Ikarol (=German) 201 primer which was not RLM colour. Seems it is available as hobby paint (googled it). Cockpit of these should have been grey as it is in the BL-200 museum example.

Sarja II was Finnish manufactured short nose Blenheim and these had only the War Camo Olive Green and black. Undersides varied: Photos show aluminium looking undersides initially, officially is should have been light grey (and could later be after repair/overhaul?). From 1942 onwards matt light blue after repair/overhaul etc.

 

Sarja V was Finnish made short nose Blenheim and Sarja VI Finnish made long nose. War Camo only for these at first and post-war aluminium paint for some.

 

All Finnish made Blenheims (and British made sarja I, too) need modifications to the base kits when modelled. Bomb well (doors), landing lights, interior equipment, armament, engine dust filters, propellers, spinners, extra window on fuselage etc.

 

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Kari Lumppio

[modelldoc]

Check out the original box art from FROG

 

modelldoc

[Antti_K]

Hello Vinnie and all

 

Luckily we got Kari around as he gives more correct and detailed info than I can give. So follow his instructions to get most accurate results.

 

Don't worry about the "S word". Of course I was delighted to read Your polite comments (thank you gentlemen) but it really doesn't bother me if someone calls Finnish Hakaristi as swastika. We have many people here in Finland who still thinks that our air force copied the swastika from the Third Reich... It is nice to find out that so many people around the World know better!

 

Next year both Finnish Air Force and Royal Air Force are celebrating their 100 years of service. Let's build many aircraft models with British and Finnish markings! Right?

 

Best Regards,

Antti

[72modeler]

There seems to be a pattern here- Finnish fellows named Kari who are aviation enthusiasts! My favorite air force, BTW! Thanks Antti and Kari for your posts- I have saved them for my future Blenheim projects. Much obliged, pardners, as we say here in the Lone Star State!

Mike

I did not realize that some Blenheim Mk1's were Finnish made- erroneously thought they were all either  purchased or gifted from the UK.

Edited July 5, 2017 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Vinnie]

15 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said:

Hello!

 

About BL-183 (or -188? Don't have my reading glasses handy) shown in the picture above. It is not Mk I. It is sarja V Finnish-made short nose Blenheim. There are quite a many detail differencies and no kit readily represents it. Olive Green black uppersides, matt light blue unders. Remarkably neat cocade surroundings. Usually these show overpainting of the pre 1945 swastika insiginias. If wholly repainted (not very likely!) post-war, underside might have been light grey too. I do not have Blenheim individual document recordings availalble so cannot say anything sure.

nly on sarja IV (BL-134-145). This batch was the 12 additional short nose Blenheims received during Winter War. These can be kitted with Airfix Mk I as they conformed to RAF specification. Time passing this changed quite a lot sometimes. Camo too.

 

arja III Blenheims (BL-122-133) were long nose Blenheim IV apparently with at least some Finnish specified equipment. Camo was same as the Sarja I. Sarja III can be kitted from Airfix Mk IV. least BL-125 had quite a bright interior green shade. See for more in this thread/post:

 

Addenda: In the thread below I write BL-198 (sarja VI long nose) interior green could be Yugoslavian paint (this one:

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

 

15

Hi Kari. Thank you for such a comprehensive reply. May I ask you to clarify a couple of points for me if you are able to. Was 'sarja IV' the group of 12 aircraft flown from England to Finland incognito by civilian dressed RAF crew. I understand these were pre painted with the Hakaristi but then whitewashed over prior to the flight to Finland. Is it likely that any of these aircraft would have survived to serve in the Continuation War?

Thank you very much.

[Kari Lumppio]

3 hours ago, Vinnie said:

... Was 'sarja IV' the group of 12 aircraft flown from England to Finland incognito by civilian dressed RAF crew. I understand these were pre painted with the Hakaristi but then whitewashed over prior to the flight to Finland. Is it likely that any of these aircraft would have survived to serve in the Continuation War? ...

Hello!

 

Answer is yes and yes. By the end of 1942 the remaining Sarja IV (i.e. RAF Mk I) Blenheim bombers were in Finnish War Camo. Before that there was a couple of interesting interesting mixes. But yes there were RAF camo plus yellow ID FinnAF Blenheims.

 

Cheers,

Kari