Hunt class type 2

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello all im a newbie from the USA. I have two other threads going one in ww2 aircraft and ww2 armor. If im exceeding or breaking limits/rules my apologies. 

    My quest is this i am something of a an ameteur historian, and definitely my families historian. Now for the question. I had a granduncle that left chicago when he was 16 (yes he lied about his age) to join the polish navy in exile. He went through canada and on to the UK. Where he was part of the Royal navy with there polish navy in exile group. He was on the ORP Kujawiak from 1940 until she was sunk near malta in 1942. I know that he was on multiple convoy escort runs to north america, egypt, the soviet union, and malta. 

    The Kujawiak was an Hunt class Destroyer escort phase 2 I believe. I may be wrong in my terminology. But i have photos, discharge papers and other materials to state he was on that ship. I have been looking on and off over the past 30 years for his ships and my grandfathers tanks (the armor thread i have going). So i ask all here at Britmodeller. Does anyone make this ship (hunt class phase 2) in 1/350 scale ? Ultimately i will build it if i have to scratch build/modify something else. But rather build a straight up kit. Also if someone does make a kit, i will need advice on colors as all photos i have are black and white. I thank everyone in advance. 

 

Dennis

[Graham Boak]

It is available in resin and plastic at 1/700.  I don't know of a 1/350 version.

 

There's no limit on threads running, except on the Sale forum.  Or if there is I've certainly not broken it with many more than two.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

22 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

 i will need advice on colors as all photos i have are black and white. I thank everyone in advance. 

 

Dennis

 

Hi Dennis,

 

Colours is something that will be difficult to state for certain, although there are some statements that can be made which narrow the possibilities down somewhat.

 

Firstly, I along with some others have been trying to cut through decades' worth of "wisdom" to get back to original documentation for RN colours. There is a long-post war fascination with strong olive shades on RN subjects and I see this has made its way onto digital colour profiles on the internet for ORP Kujawiak as it has many others. I have been to see controlled original samples and have been involved in extensive research. Olive greens were not on the Royal Navy's normal colour palette between 1939 and 1942. The most greenish shade was called "MS3" and it is fairly greyish in isolation but takes on a greenish juxtaposition against the predominantly bluish shades that the RN favoured otherwise.

 

MS3

 

With images such as these:

 

... all anyone can really do is guesstimate shades relative to one another. The pennant number is more than likely white. That looks to me to be just a whisker lighter than the lightest triangular panels on the hull. I'd therefore suggest that those triangular panels could be MS4, a neutral light grey. The superstructure at the bridge and forward turret appear the next lightest shade. I'd suggest 507C Mediterranean Grey could be a candidate for that. The shade the pennant number is painted on might be MS3. The darker triangular panel towards the bow could possibly be B5 or MS2.

 

It's hard to say though really, and can be further complicated by black and white films which shift the apparent tone of more saturated colours whilst not affecting neutral greys so much.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Thank you Jamie. You have more knowledge than myself on this subject. I know its unlikely to be a perfect match when i do build the ship. But if i can get as close as possible then im satisfied.

    I have the same photo's from his original collection and personal photo albums. As well as a number of other ships from the same time frame. And i know he was a fire control man which i believe has to do with ranging shots. When the Kujawiak sank he was Discharged from the Polish navy and was transferred to the US Navy. He told me the ship was sunk via torpedo on a convoy to Malta. Im not sure by aerial or submarine as ive read different accounts. Though he at the time of telling said aerial dropped by Ju-88. He described attacks by Italian Sm.79's as well. 

I again thank you for the help and hope to hear from others as well.

 

Dennis 

[Gmat]

Look for this book,

Man O' War #4 - Hunt Class Escort Destroyers

It's out of print and might be 30 bucks or more but it is well worth getting. Man O' War and Ensign monographs (the latter became the former) have lots of photos and some color profiles. Not as complete as the Anatomy of a Ship books, but about the best you might find. Raven and Roberts, authors. Both are very well respected. You might more info to camouflage colors that you seek.

 

There is also this book The Hunts A History of the Design, Development and Careers of the 86 Destroyers of this class built for the Royal and Allied Navies during World War II. English, John, author.

 

You might try ModelWarship.com. It is also called Ship Modeler Forum and post your question on the Calling All Ship Fans forum. Look up up Calling All Hunt Class fans. Looking at the six pages, there is no mention of a 1/350 Hunt class .                                              

 

Grant

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

22 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Hi Dennis,

 

Colours is something that will be difficult to state for certain, although there are some statements that can be made which narrow the possibilities down somewhat.

 

Firstly, I along with some others have been trying to cut through decades' worth of "wisdom" to get back to original documentation for RN colours. There is a long-post war fascination with strong olive shades on RN subjects and I see this has made its way onto digital colour profiles on the internet for ORP Kujawiak as it has many others. I have been to see controlled original samples and have been involved in extensive research. Olive greens were not on the Royal Navy's normal colour palette between 1939 and 1942. The most greenish shade was called "MS3" and it is fairly greyish in isolation but takes on a greenish juxtaposition against the predominantly bluish shades that the RN favoured otherwise.

 

MS3

 

With images such as these:

 

... all anyone can really do is guesstimate shades relative to one another. The pennant number is more than likely white. That looks to me to be just a whisker lighter than the lightest triangular panels on the hull. I'd therefore suggest that those triangular panels could be MS4, a neutral light grey. The superstructure at the bridge and forward turret appear the next lightest shade. I'd suggest 507C Mediterranean Grey could be a candidate for that. The shade the pennant number is painted on might be MS3. The darker triangular panel towards the bow could possibly be B5 or MS2.

 

It's hard to say though really, and can be further complicated by black and white films which shift the apparent tone of more saturated colours whilst not affecting neutral greys so much.

 

This is *roughly* what the ship would have looked like in the suggested colours:

 

 

NOTE: This has had no checks or scrutiny and really needs further consideration. However, the colours suggested are at least plausible and representative of the real shades which will contradict some other published works with proven errors in some of the fundamentals.

[Bugle07]

Hi Dennis,

 

Ironshipwrights.com list a Hunt Type 2 HMS Middleton in 1/350. It's a resin kit priced at $90 with photoetch, made by Accurate Image Models.

 

I don't think there's any 1/350 plastic kits out there, although several in 1/700, the IBG one's a great little kit. 

 

Hope this helps

 

Geoff

[GrzeM]

Hi! Very interesting story!

IBG makes good model of the ORP Kujawiak in 1/700, the parts and the whole instuction sheet you can see here: http://www.ibgmodels.com/70002.htm - there is some info about colours too!

As far as I know Kujawiak has sunk on the mine. Some informations you can find here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Kujawiak_(L72)

Greetings from Warsaw, Poland!

Grzegorz

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

On 7/4/2017 at 8:00 AM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

This is *roughly* what the ship would have looked like in the suggested colours:

 

 

NOTE: This has had no checks or scrutiny and really needs further consideration. However, the colours suggested are at least plausible and representative of the real shades which will contradict some other published works with proven errors in some of the fundamentals.

Hello Jamie I know you're busy but if you have a chance Id like some of your excellent input again. Ive just ordered the IBG ORP Kujawiak in 1/700 and are these colors still the best ones ? If i can get your stuff that would be great but will mix and match stuff if I cant. 
 

Dennis

[dickrd]

On 7/3/2017 at 3:32 PM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

 

... all anyone can really do is guesstimate shades relative to one another. The pennant number is more than likely white. That looks to me to be just a whisker lighter than the lightest triangular panels on the hull. I'd therefore suggest that those triangular panels could be MS4, a neutral light grey. The superstructure at the bridge and forward turret appear the next lightest shade. I'd suggest 507C Mediterranean Grey could be a candidate for that. The shade the pennant number is painted on might be MS3. The darker triangular panel towards the bow could possibly be B5 or MS2.

 

 

I hope Jamie won't mind if I suggest he has inadvertently got the lightest two of his suggested paints in his entirely plausible proposed palette the wrong way round above. 507C (RF 45%) was lighter than MS4 (RF 32%). So I would suggest he probably meant 507C for the lightest hull triangular panels and MS4 for the bridge etc. 

 

Strange that the IBG instructions suggest only three colours for the camouflage scheme whereas four are apparent in the two photos we have. 

 

(Corsairfoxfouruncle, if you have any other photos of Kujawiak we would love to see them.)  

Edited August 6, 2020 by dickrd

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

1 hour ago, dickrd said:

Corsairfoxfouruncle, if you have any other photos of Kujawiak we would love to see them.) 

I think I do, Id have to go through his photo’s. Not an easy thing as post military career he was a freelance reporter here in Chicago and took his own photo’s. I will dig out the photo books and see what I can find. I know there are other R.N. ships as well as he often took photo’s when he could. Give me a few days and I will post what I can find. He was a huge fan of the space race and actually collected all of the astronaut/cosmonaut autographs while doing his job. It is a prized collection in the family. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, dickrd said:

I hope Jamie won't mind if I suggest he has inadvertently got the lightest two of his suggested paints in his entirely plausible proposed palette the wrong way round above. 507C (RF 45%) was lighter than MS4 (RF 32%). So I would suggest he probably meant 507C for the lightest hull triangular panels and MS4 for the bridge etc. 

 

Strange that the IBG instructions suggest only three colours for the camouflage scheme whereas four are apparent in the two photos we have. 

 

(Corsairfoxfouruncle, if you have any other photos of Kujawiak we would love to see them.)  

 

Good morning Richard and Dennis, which must in itself appear odd to Richard!

 

I thought I had replied to this when I woke up this morning and was sure I'd typed it out even. The gist was that at time of writing in 2017, I still had the lightest 3 MS & B series paints a bit uncertain in my mind, with much more confidence gained after digital measurement of samples at Portsmouth in February 2018. The swatch I illustrated as "MS4" above is much too light, and I entirely agree with Richard that I have the two lightest tones most resolutely back to front. In the reply I thought I'd written this morning, I posed the idea that the lightest triangle might possibly have been MS4A instead of 507C, but that notion is predicated on the idea that the pendant number is white and not MS4A itself...

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

4 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Good morning Richard and Dennis, which must in itself appear odd to Richard!

 

I thought I had replied to this when I woke up this morning and was sure I'd typed it out even. The gist was that at time of writing in 2017, I still had the lightest 3 MS & B series paints a bit uncertain in my mind, with much more confidence gained after digital measurement of samples at Portsmouth in February 2018. The swatch I illustrated as "MS4" above is much too light, and I entirely agree with Richard that I have the two lightest tones most resolutely back to front. In the reply I thought I'd written this morning, I posed the idea that the lightest triangle might possibly have been MS4A instead of 507C, but that notion is predicated on the idea that the pendant number is white and not MS4A itself...

 

 

Thank you Jamie for responding. You don't by chance have color swatches to share do you ? In the off chance I cant get color-coats i would like something to base mixes off of if at all possible. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I don't, but I'll be finishing the new batch of 507C tonight which completes our first US trade order since the early half of 2018 so there will be some going, at looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggg last there.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Apologies in advance for the coarseness, and I'm aware that it's on a different general arrangement of basic Hunt silhouette (i.e. the one from CB3098(R) in 1943) but line drawings take ages so I figured it was more valuable to get something to you quicker that improved the general colour placement. Here are two suggested appearances which don't contain such an obvious howler as the one above...

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

 

20 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

general arrangement of basic Hunt silhouette (i.e. the one from CB3098(R) in 1943) but line drawings take ages so I figured it was more valuable to get something to you quicker that improved the general colour placement. Here are two suggested appearances

Thanks for your help. 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

On 8/6/2020 at 1:50 AM, dickrd said:

Corsairfoxfouruncle, if you have any other photos of Kujawiak we would love to see them.)  

My apologies in the very long delay, I finally got around to digging the photo’s out. There aren't many that are from this period. I imagine most were lost when the ship sank. But here are the few I have. I believe the first two (one ship two photo’s) to be in Malta ? 
 

 

Next up is H.M.S.Argus in Scotland.

Hull number X82, Im not sure of type or Name ? 

 

Last up is O.R.P.Kujawiak (L72) tied alongside (L115) another Hunt Class. 

According to the handwritten note on the backside this is supposed to be H.M.S.Eskimo

 

 

I give permission to use these but retain ownership of the photo’s. 
 

Dennis

[Graham Boak]

I think that the last one is HMS Birmingham, the only Town class cruiser without a knuckle bow.  Certainly a cruiser, not Eskimo - as you've spotted.

 

X82 unusual pennant presentation for the RN, looks more American.

[bootneck]

The first two, Ark Royal? are at Gibraltar.  If so, what's the history on the damaged bow?  Or is it an optical illusion?

 

Mike

[Graham Boak]

That explains the dark band above the waterline, which would otherwise point to 1945.  I thought the hill was a bit steep for Malta, but don't know the island. 

 

X92 is definitely not a Flower, or any corvette.  Something more muscular - flared bow and superimposed armament suggest destroyer, the shapely superstructure/bridge something other than Admiralty issue.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday All, I think that last photo could be a Colony (Fiji) class cruiser, possibly HMS Jamaica. I know HMS Birmingham didn't have the knuckle, and it's not visible here, but that shading under the bow could be deceiving the eye.  The Towns had raked funnels (and masts I think), while these look vertical. The hangars on the Towns were built flush sided with the hull, the Colony class had a narrow walkway outboard of the hangars. The front top edge of the turrets were rounded a little on the Towns, not so much on the Colony's. The Colony's also originally had a director mounted on 'X' turret, which looks the case here. This director was mounted in the middle of the turret on many of the class but Jamaica (AFAIK) had hers towards the rear of the turret. I have been known to be wrong, of course. 😁 Regards, Jeff.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

That explains the dark band above the waterline, which would otherwise point to 1945.  I thought the hill was a bit steep for Malta, but don't know the island. 

 

X92 is definitely not a Flower, or any corvette.  Something more muscular - flared bow and superimposed armament suggest destroyer, the shapely superstructure/bridge something other than Admiralty issue.

I found the ship in a French listing X82 was “Le Malin”

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_destroyer_Le_Malin

Edited October 29, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[dickrd]

Thanks for sharing these Dennis. L115 was another Polish Hunt - Krakowiak.

 

The final photo is a censored version of IWM photo A 5897 of the Fiji Class cruiser HMS Kenya: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140098

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

While Im at it does anyone make kits in either 1/700 or 1/350 of a Casablanca Class escort carrier or a LSM(R). My uncle served on board CVE-86 U.S.S.Sitkoh Bay and LSMR-521 Rainy River. 

[Bugle07]

Hasegawa did a 1/350 kit of USS Gambier Bay (CVE-73), another Casablanca Class ship, about ten years ago according to Scalemates 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/hasegawa-40027-uss-gambier-bay-cve-73--151783

 

Tamiya do the USS Bouge in 1/700, different class, not sure how similar they are but it would be a cheaper option.

 

Don't know about the LSM (R), the 501 class look very different to all the other LSM types, I don't know if you could even convert a LSM into one?

 

There are a few LSM kits about, Revell do the 1/144 kit, Skywave/Pit Road do a 1/700 set but they have the superstructure amidships whereas the 501s were all  at the stern. Niko do a 1/700 LST that could be modified, looks a closer start point?

 

Geoff