263 Sqn Gladiators in Norway

[longweight]

I have an old Humbrol issue of the Heller 1/72 Gladiator Mk1/II. The box art features N5908 FoHE with blue spinner, cowling and rudder. I suspect the wheel covers when fitted would have been blue too.

 

A trawl through Google has only thrown up photos of the restored N5641 GoHE in a museum in Norway with those markings. (Including an interesting on this forum from a while ago.)

My question is did these aircraft, so hurriedly deployed to Norway, actually have the blue applied to their various bits? The 2 or 3 books on Gladdies that I have offer no clues.

I'd like to do this scheme but prefer confirmation which photos of a restored museum aircraft doesnt really provide.  Also whether the camo was in the 4 shades scheme or simply DG/DE and what style was the undersides...B/W, B/W/S or sky grey etc.

 

Thanks in advance.

BTW the skis will come in handy on another kit

[Vingtor]

Both the Heller colours and the restored aircraft at the Bodø museum are completely wrong. There should be no yellow fuselage roundel ring, no fin marking, and no blue cowling nor fin.

 

A rather good book on 263 Squadron's deployments to Norway was published by MMP Books a couple of years ago. This includes good and accurate profiles and plan views.

 

Nils

[stevehnz]

Is that the MMP Gladiator book Nils or something more specific to this campaign?

Steve.

[Ed Russell]

http://mmpbooks.biz/shop2/product.php?productid=17734

[mhaselden]

Ironically, I just finished Crawford's book on 263 Sqn's involvement in the Norway Campaign (the aforementioned MMP book). 

 

6 hours ago, Vingtor said:

Both the Heller colours and the restored aircraft at the Bodø museum are completely wrong. There should be no yellow fuselage roundel ring, no fin marking, and no blue cowling nor fin.

 

A rather good book on 263 Squadron's deployments to Norway was published by MMP Books a couple of years ago. This includes good and accurate profiles and plan views.

 

Nils

 

Nils' comments are correct for the first deployment to Norway since that happened in April 1940 which is prior to the introduction of the Type A1 fuselage roundel and fin flash.  However, N5908 was part of the second deployment, with entirely new aircraft, which had the updated national markings.  There is a photo in the book showing an aircraft of the second deployment which clearly has a fin flash so it seems likely the national markings were updated.  The fin flash covered most of the fin but the red/white/blue bars were all of equal width (i.e. no painting the entire forward section of the fin red).  Crawford's book actually has a nice profile of N5908 and includes the 'HE-F' code letters and there are a couple of pics identified as N5908 showing a 2-blade, fixed-pitch propeller despite it being a MkII airframe.

 

Now for the difficult bit...the camouflage.  There's a lot of speculation relative to camouflage and even Crawford doesn't have definitive answers.  It's apparent that some 263 Sqn Gladiators wore the full 4-pattern shadow compensation scheme, including the use of the lighter-toned shades on the fuselage sides.  Others apparently wore Dark Earth/Dark Green on the entire fuselage but probably had lighter shadow compensation shades on the upper surfaces of the lower wing.  Undersides are just as messy.  Some 263 Sqn Gladiators wore black/white undersides divided down the centerline while others, according to Crawford, wore aluminium undersides.  Again according to Crawford, N5908 falls into this latter category.  The pics of N5908 in the book aren't hugely helpful as they show the wrecked airframe with the wings badly bent.  What is clear is that the underside of the upper wing was a single uniform light-toned shade.  The port lower wing, alas, is in heavy shadow.  I can convince myself that it was black because in one pic the underside of the starboard wing is clearly in a light-toned shade.  To my eye, I'm seeing all white undersides for the upper wing and black/white split for the lower wing.

 

One other interesting detail in these 2 photos is that N5908 may have had a personal marking.  The starboard wheel appears to have a 3-pointed star painted on it.  It looks rather like a Mercedes Benz badge.  Now, it could be an optical illusion due to clutter around the aircraft so don't take my description as absolute confirmation.   

 

For anyone interested in the Norway Campaign, I'd strongly recommend Crawford's book.  It's very detailed even if I disagree with some of his colour callouts. 

 

Hope this helps a little bit. 

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

QUICK EDIT:  One quick addition - N5908 wore underwing Type A roundels at the extreme wingtips.  The more I look at the photos, the more convinced I am that the lower port underwing was black.  Both lower wing wingtips were ripped off in the accident with the starboard near its corresponding wing but the port sitting vertically behind the aircraft.  That port wingtip seems to show a dark surface next to the roundel.  Again, it's hard to be 100% but that's where I'm putting my money. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by mhaselden

[stevehnz]

Thanks Ed & Mark, the Norwegian campaign is one I've read little about so this sounds like a good place to start.

Steve.

[mhaselden]

 

16 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Thanks Ed & Mark, the Norwegian campaign is one I've read little about so this sounds like a good place to start.

Steve.

 

I can also recommend Chris Shores' "Fledgling Eagles".  It covers more than just the Norway Campaign but it's a good overview of early air operations in Europe following the outbreak of war in Sep 39.

Edited July 3, 2017 by mhaselden

[Vingtor]

I must confess that Mark is right about the second campaingn. At that time the fin marking had been added and the fuselage roundel had got the yellow ring. I was mainly referring to N5641 and the first campaign, not realizing that N5908 was part of the second campaign (I am currently on vacation, not having my references available). The blue cowling av rudder is most probably wrong for both, though. I think both Heller and the restoration team reliead on a drawing in an old Profile booklet as their reference. N5641 was actually coded HE-B, not HE-G.

 

Alex Crawford's book on 263 Squadron is a very good book, and is the best on the topic - so far. A Norwegian researcher (and a good friend of mine) has much more unpublished photos and other material, including interviews with pilots and crews. He collected this back in the 1980s. I hope he will start working on this book before long.

 

Nils

 

 

[mhaselden]

Hi Nils,

 

I do hope your friend does produce a book.  Any and all insights into the Norway Campaign are useful and not every historian/researcher has access to ALL the available material.

 

I would agree with your assessment about the blue cowling and fin, unless there's compelling evidence that such markings were worn by one or more 263 Sqn airframes prior to the first expedition.  I don't see any scope for such markings given the speed with which the Sqn was re-equipped for the second expedition. 

 

Regarding N5641, Crawford provides no code letter tie-up for that airframe.  He does identify N5628 as 'HE-B'.  Sadly, like most things with 263's Norwegian operations, there's scant info available in the available published sources and few verifiable serial/code tie-ups.

Cheers,
Mark

[Vingtor]

My friend has just finished 7 volumes of 331 and 332 Squadrons WW2 history, each volume counting about 400 pages and weigthing 2 - 2.5 kilos. he deserves a few months to recover. He says he has material for some 15-20 other books (of the same size), but I am persuing him to do the 263 Sqn book first.

 

Back in the 1980s I met Stuart Mills, pilot at 263 Sqn, at a meeting with the Norwegian Aviation Historical Sociary. This was at the time that N5641 had just been restored, and when my friand was diong his research. Mills could indeed tell that N5641 was his aircraft, and he recognised the bullet holes in the fuselage and wing struts. He also told that when he flew the aircraft, in April 1940, it was coded HE-B, not HE-G. This would be a dispute between Crawford and Mills, sadly Mills is no longer with us. For the second campaign. another airframe would most certainlly been allocated the code letter B.

 

On their way to Norway for the first campaign, 263 Sqn lost one aircraft and received a Sea Gladiator, N5518, as attrition. It would be interesting to know if this was painted with squadron code letters, and in that case which individual letter.

 

Nils

[mhaselden]

Hi Nils,

I'd be supportive of your friend doing 263 Sqn first...but I can understand him wanting to take a rest after the mammoth task of covering 331 and 332 Sqns.  Do you think he'd have any interest in covering 330 Sqn?  I also have a soft-spot for the Northrop N-3PBs operated by that Sqn.

 

Crawford contests the theory that a Sea Gladiator's joined 263 Sqn.  He specifically identifies Sea Gladiator N5518 as the airframe allocated to 263 Sqn to replace N5695 which was lost in the attempt to land aboard HMS Glorious (being flown by a FAA pilot).  Crawford cites another FAA pilot logbook, PO A W Sabey, who flew Gladiator N5578 to Glorious on 22 Apr 40 which was the day after all other 263 Sqn machines (except N5695) were landed onto Glorious. 

 

I think some of the basis for the identification of a Sea Gladiator comes from a well-known photo of a 263 Sqn machine which apparently has a very pale lower fuselage similar to the high demarcation between Sky Grey and TSS uppers we're familiar with on FAA fighters of the period.  That said, IIRC a researcher (perhaps your friend) has a high-quality version of the photo which shows it's actually wearing the 4-tone shadow compensation scheme and not FAA camo.

 

Cheers,
Mark

[Vingtor]

35 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

 

The well known photo you are referring to, which has been distibuted as a not very good copy, has been used as "proof" of both Temperate Sea Scheme and the "Arctic Scheme" - both high demarcation.  My friend has much better copy (in fact from the original negative) of this photo that shows clearly that it is just the standard RAF DG/DE/LG/LE shadow shading scheme.

 

My friend (you might by now know his name - the author of the "Spitfire Saga" volumes) has lots of material on 330 Squadron, as well as 333 Sqn., and is planning books on both, as well as the 263/46 Sqn operations in Norway. His first book many years ago was in fact on the 330 Sqn. N-3PBs. His problem is that the day has only 24 hours. He should be cloned...

 

Nils

Edited July 3, 2017 by Vingtor

[mhaselden]

3 minutes ago, Vingtor said:

The well known photo you are referring to, which has been distibuted as a not very good copy, has been used as "proof" of both Temperate Sea Scheme and the "Arctic Scheme" - both high demarcation.  My friend has much better copy (in fact from the original negative) of this photo that shows clearly that it is just the standard RAF DG/DE/LG/LE shadow shading scheme.

 

My friend (you might by now know his name - the author of the "Spitfire Saga" volumes) has lots of material on 330 Squadron, as well as 333 Sqn., and is planning books on both, as well as the 263/46 Sqn operations in Norway. His first book many years ago was in fact on the 330 Sqn. N-3PBs. His problem is that the day has only 24 hours. He should be cloned...

 

Nils

 

Good to know, Nils.  Nice to know my memory on the photo wasn't playing tricks on me.

 

I'd like to get your friend's book on 330 Sqn, providing it was published in English.  Sadly, my Norwegian only gets fluent after too much alcohol...but I know I can speak the language after a long bar session in Sola with a Norwegian Army officer who didn't speak English and yet we fully understood what we were saying (or, should I say, slurring) to each other!

Edited July 3, 2017 by mhaselden

[Pete in Lincs]

5 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

yet we fully understood what we were saying

Odd, I had exactly the same experience at a German Air Force base (Holsten)

in the mid eighties, early hours, discussing politics in German/English.

Alcohol. Who needs a babelfish?

[TonyTiger66]

13 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Odd, I had exactly the same experience at a German Air Force base (Holsten)

in the mid eighties, early hours, discussing politics in German/English.

Alcohol. Who needs a babelfish?

 

Sane here. A cellar bar at around 1am to 3am in Krakow in the mid 90's.

 

Around seven different language speakers there, hardly anyone spoke anyone else's.

 

All utterly rodent bottomed. We all honestly understood each other's jokes. One Swede that was there said that being drunk creates; "The universal

language" !

 

TT

[Vingtor]

No worry. Although the 331/332 Sqn books were published in Norwegian, the 330 and 263/46 Sqn books will be in English. At least he has told me so.

 

Nils

[mhaselden]

9 minutes ago, Vingtor said:

No worry. Although the 331/332 Sqn books were published in Norwegian, the 330 and 263/46 Sqn books will be in English. At least he has told me so.

 

Nils

 

Good to know, Nils.  Many thanks.

[longweight]

Thanks to all who responded, some useful stuff there.

 

John H

[DennisTheBear]

10 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

 

Sane here. A cellar bar at around 1am to 3am in Krakow in the mid 90's.

 

Around seven different language speakers there, hardly anyone spoke anyone else's.

 

All utterly rodent bottomed. We all honestly understood each other's jokes. One Swede that was there said that being drunk creates; "The universal

language" !

 

TT

Same thing happened to me in a small bar on a back street in Korea, back when I used to drink alcohol. It is amazing what a couple of bottles of tequila can do.

 

Nice discussion on this subject (the Gladiator that is) as I have a very old Airfix one that I am considering what to do with.

 

DennisTheBear

[Ed Russell]

2 hours ago, DennisTheBear said:

 I have a very old Airfix one that I am considering what to do with.

The options are to just build it for fun or chuck it out. It in no way compares to the new Airfix one and probably has a resale value of about 1p.

 

 

[perdu]

I didn't ask him which squadron he served in and now its too late but my dad was with the Glads in Norway

 

All the questions you don't ask huh?  😟

 

He did tell me there wasn't room on Glorious for everyone so he got separated from his squadron and its aircraft and some mates when they came home

 

I'm glad it happened that way, selfish or what?

 

I know he went to Hawkinge next and as a kid all I wanted to hear about was the BoB

 

As I say, the ones you didn't ask

 

Dad was an armourer most of his service but did serve as an AG later

 

I'd like to read the book when it is written. ☺

[mhaselden]

 

3 hours ago, perdu said:

I didn't ask him which squadron he served in and now its too late but my dad was with the Glads in Norway

 

All the questions you don't ask huh?  😟

 

He did tell me there wasn't room on Glorious for everyone so he got separated from his squadron and its aircraft and some mates when they came home

 

I'm glad it happened that way, selfish or what?

 

I know he went to Hawkinge next and as a kid all I wanted to hear about was the BoB

 

As I say, the ones you didn't ask

 

Dad was an armourer most of his service but did serve as an AG later

 

I'd like to read the book when it is written. ☺

 

Hi Bill,

 

Know what you mean.  I think of the opportunities I missed when younger to learn more about "forgotten" aspects of WW2.  I even met Leonard Cheshire once but did I manage to get his signature?  Nope...what a dope I was/am!

 

The Crawford book on 263 Sqn is actually very detailed about day-to-day operations and would probably be worth getting in the interim until Nils' pal rejuvenates his writing mojo and completes his work (which, based on the limited info I have about his research, should be a cracker!).

 

Cheers,
Mark

[DennisTheBear]

11 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

The options are to just build it for fun or chuck it out. It in no way compares to the new Airfix one and probably has a resale value of about 1p.

 

 

All mine are built for fun, if it happens to have an accurate paint scheme it is even more fun!

 

If a few small tweeks that are in the realms of my limited modelling skills/tools/paints/budget can make it look better then I'm happy, and having fun.

 

DennisTheBear