Couple of questions on AVG P-40Bs

[Brian J]

I posed my first question on ARC last week but failed to get any informative responses so I thought I'd try here.  

 

1.  After looking over numerous photos of AVG P-40Bs  I am unable to see if the antenna wires were the same for all aircraft.  I know that radio communication was a problem in the early years of the war for most countries and the problem was not solved for several years.  In the artwork produced by Thomas A. Tullis in EagleFiles #4 Tigers Over China:  The Aircraft of the A.V.G. all of the drawings/artwork indicate that antenna wires ran from the tail to both wing tips as well as to the upper fuselage midway between the cockpit and the tail.  

 

While it is often difficult to tell from b&w photos, it appears that this arrangement was not found on all (if any) AVG P-40s.  Did the antenna wire arrangement vary from aircraft to aircraft as well as the time period the aircraft were in operation?  

 

2.  What would be the appropriate colour for cockpit interiors for these aircraft?  Airfix kit instructions indicate 'Interior Green' but my research indicates that 'Interior Green' was not standardized until later in 1943.  Has there ever been a definitive conclusion as to what shade of green was used by Curtiss before American entry into the war or before 1943?

 

I welcome any comments or insight on the above questions.  

Edited July 2, 2017 by Brian J

[Greenshirt]

I can't provide an opinion on the first question as I don't know, but now I want to know, of course!

 

As for interior colors...AVG P-40s were from a batch of RAF Tomahawks that were agreed to have redirected from Curtiss production so the colors should be to MAP requirements as contracted with Curtiss.  However it's not a simple answer  

Upon reading these two threads, you'll have an idea of about what the colors likely were. 

 

OBTW, if you search britmodeller via google, you'll get better results; try this as your search string: site:www.britmodeller.com avg tomahawk interior

[Nick Millman]

FWIW the Curtiss interior colour was a yellow-green hue approximately between FS 14255 and 14257 but a little yellower in appearance - significantly lighter and yellower than ANA Interior Green or FS 34151.

 

Was applied P-36 to P-40E. Doesn't seem to have been in F - not sure about K. 

 

Nick

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

My two cents says that since the aircraft were originally part of an RAF order. And the were assembled in burma by the raf. Looking at P-40 tomahawk/ kittyhawk radio set-ups would be my guess. Whether the equipment may or may not have been British or American. Its set-up and locations probably didnt change. Less modifying, re-routing, airframe mods or center of gravity issues. Good luck and I will follow this build as im planning on an avg p-40 myself. 

 

Dennis

Edited July 2, 2017 by Corsairfoxfouruncle
Not finished

[DennisTheBear]

IIRC the AVG's P40B/C didn't carry radios.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Brian J

Your original assessment of antenae arrangement on AVG Hawks 81A-2 sounds about right to me. Take a look at this photo:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hawk-81A/23FG1PS/pages/Curtiss-Hawk-81A-23FG1PS-P8187-John-Deall-01.html

Same style of antenae can be just discern on several photos of other AVG Hawks 81A-2, published in various books, although sharp enough web photos of Flying Tigers aircraft is somewhat difficult to find. I would guess that majority, if not all AVG Hawks, had been equipped this way. Cheers

Jure

[Nick Millman]

2 hours ago, DennisTheBear said:

IIRC the AVG's P40B/C didn't carry radios.

 

They did. They were delivered wired for RAF radio equipment but without the radio transmitters and receivers. AVG ground crew stripped out the RAF wiring at Kyedaw airfield in Burma and installed the US-manufactured commercial RCA-7-H radio transceiver as used in Piper Cubs.

 

Nick  

[greatgonzo]

Nick, is it possible that being built for RAF, the AVG Hawks would have been painted in the cockpit area with a paint based on DuPont 71-036?

[Brian J]

Thanks for the informative comments so far.  That last question on cockpit colours is interesting and I'm looking forward to comments by Nick.  As to the antenna wire set up, Nick, what would you conclude would be the antenna wire arrangement.  If a different type of radio system was installed would that imply that the antenna set up would change as well?  Would all P-40's have a three wire set up for the whole time period they were in operation up to July, 1942?

Edited July 2, 2017 by Brian J

[mhaselden]

7 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello, Brian J

Your original assessment of antenae arrangement on AVG Hawks 81A-2 sounds about right to me. Take a look at this photo:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hawk-81A/23FG1PS/pages/Curtiss-Hawk-81A-23FG1PS-P8187-John-Deall-01.html

Same style of antenae can be just discern on several photos of other AVG Hawks 81A-2, published in various books, although sharp enough web photos of Flying Tigers aircraft is somewhat difficult to find. I would guess that majority, if not all AVG Hawks, had been equipped this way. Cheers

Jure

 

I would agree, Jure.  Airborne radio comms was troublesome, to say the least, during the early part of WW2.  I would imagine most, if not all, the AVG airframes would have had a radio because of the need to communicate during an engagement.  It's really hard to tell your wingman he has a "Zero" (in reality a Ki-43) on his tail if you can't talk to him.  I find it hard to believe that the radio installation was not a standard fit across all AVG airframes. 

[Nick Millman]

Universal Trading Corporation ordered 100 sets of the RCA radios for the AVG aircraft. The fate of all 100 AVG aircraft is not completely known. A number were destroyed as a result of training accidents and there was some cannibalisation and assembly of aircraft from parts of different airframes, e.g. P-8194 which suffered salt water corrosion as a result of being dropped into Rangoon harbour and had its wings replaced with those from P-8157. P-8157 was cannibalised because it had been set aside lacking instruments but was later re-assembled in March 1942 with wings and instruments taken from other crashed aircraft. Ford refers to 62 aircraft entering service of which only two had no guns or radios, but elsewhere he reports that the AVG strength never exceeded 55 aircraft. 

 

The cockpit colour is uncertain. The best colour photographs are ambiguous but a colour photograph of wreckage with exposed interior parts seems to show a colour similar to the Dupont cockpit light green. That would be a colour a little paler and slightly yellower than FS 34272, going towards RAL 6021 Blassgrün (pale green). However the paint used was probably Berryloid so all that comes with a health warning. The area above and on each side of the headrest (which was a continuation of the rear view scallops) was painted the exterior colour so it looks darker in many photos.

 

AFAIK the antenna wire arrangement was standard but the actual wires cannot be discerned in many photos. It was reported that at any one time only one in three of the radios worked effectively. As mentioned already they were 12 volt civilian models and modification was required to connect them to the aircraft's 24 volt electrical system.

 

Nick  

[Brian J]

Many thanks for your comments, Nick.  To get down to specifics, I plan on doing a 1/48 build-up of the often photographed #68 for which there is a well known colour photo (among others) of this aircraft with R.T. Smith leaning on the port wing root.  I am only able to make out one antenna wire in the photo which I conclude runs from the tail to the upper fuselage.  Photos of some other aircraft indicate antenna wires running out to the wing tips.  My conclusion is that over time there were different set ups.  I plan on doing 1/72 build-ups representing one model from each of the three squadrons so getting answers to my original questions is still important to me.

 

Comments on my observations about #68 would be appreciated.  

[Nick Millman]

I have that photo of # 68 you refer to and whilst the wire from the fin to the fuselage can just about be seen there is no sign of any wire running to the port wing tip. In some photos of other aircraft a wire to one or other wing tip can just be seen but there are many photos where no wires can be seen. The photo of # 6 (P-8187) linked above is one of the few where both wing tip wires can just about be seen. 

 

I'm afraid that I don't know if the configuration changed and if so for what reason. Or for that matter whether the aerial wires were simply too fine to show up in some photos (judging by the photo of # 6) or are not really there in the first place. My inclination, FWIW, would be for the former.

 

It would be difficult to add such fine wires 'in scale' so one solution in 1/72 might be to not to try to represent them at all.

 

Nick

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Brian J

There is not much I could add to Nick's post. I checked several photos of number 68 and despite Chuck Older's Hawk 81A-2 had been reputedly the most often photographed AVG plane I cannot provide the definitive answer. On most of the photos antennae are not visible, but an angle between vertical tail's leading edge and turnbuckle suggests wing tips arrangement, if not also additional antennae running towards plane's spine. Few photos, however, suggest otherwise, that is one or two wires running between tail and fuselage. Personally, just to be on the safe side, I would stick with original arrangement, at least for an early scheme before repaint. Cheers

Jure

[greatgonzo]

Thank You Nick. The Cockpit Light Green idea makes sense to me, which does not mean its a proven thing, of course.

 

It was known (does not mean common) practice in the field to correct the antenna wiring following different problems with maintenance, or making things more comfortable. The radio would work not only with one wire configuration. It is always a bag of warms to try to pin exact  wiring for the single aircraft. I know it doesn't help much here :(.

But if somebody wanted to avoid mounting the antennas it is good to remember, they could have been taken off on the ground to allow easier access to the plane. Erks would have done it with Spitfire - no reason why should it be different with P-40.

[Aeon]

Hello all,

Not 100% sure but for the cockpit I will go for the Cockpit Light Green DuPont 71-036.

The only color photos I've found with a bit of cockpit visible.

 

 

 

 

And the DuPont chart.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sean_M]

I have not read the whole thread, but I have done a lot for research on P-40 Schemes for our masks. PM me if you need more help. There are 2 distinct camo patterns  Early , painted bt chalk outline and the second with Plywood masks. Aircraft were done for RAF and some of these out of various batches were re-directed to the AVG