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Mountain goat

1/72 Special Hobby Mirage F.1C

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Hi,

 

Since I didn't meet the past two group builds' deadlines on time, I've chosen a build I hope will prove less time-consuming. I don't have much time this year, additionally I'm a slow builder and when dissatisfied I rather tear something off and start again than just leave it be. Initially I really wanted to do a Mirage IVA because I have a nice and complicated modification plan for the Heller kit, but that'll have to wait till another time. 

 

So instead I'll do a super smart looking air defence Mirage F.1C in the time frame between 1975 and 1982. I haven't quite made my mind up as to the version; the F.1C-200 which comes standard in the kit or the vanilla F.1C which requires some modification. I'm slightly partial to an F.1C-200 from EC 1/5 Vendée but we'll see about that. Oh look, here's a random picture... :lol:

 

F1%20ORANGE%20HANGARETTE.jpg

 

As I'm now working on an 'Hangarette' aircraft shelter to complement this project, seen behind the aircraft in above shot, the Mirage build won't start straight away. I'll include pics of that project in this thread.

 

Jay

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Jay,

 

Welcome to the GB, very pleased to see an early Bleu!

 

You know where my choice of markings lie (forgot to mention EC.3/12 amongst the favourites in the early schemes).

 

Like the picture you posted in chat of the EC.2/30 F1C alongside the 19Sqn Lightning F.2A, I could quite understand while you'd want to model that as a diorama.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Wez!

 

On with the build -and immediately I must admit I was quite the plonker today -I dropped my phone in a lake -it slipped from my pocket and I didn't pay attention. Thereby also losing the pics I had made of the build. So I quickly made a set of new ones and I hope they still convey something of the progress I made this weekend. 

 

First the stuff I am going to use. The Pavla MB Mk4 seats are cheap enough to justify cutting this particular corner. I'll use CMK wheels as I think the kit main wheels are inferior, having a rounded tread as they do. The Berna decal sheet will supply the French marking, but I see now I've photographed the wrong one. I have settled for an F1C-200 of 1/5 Vendée so just try to imagine another sheet. 

 

35010627333_8ff59ac6d2_c.jpg

 

I added some detailing to the cockpit walls using thin Evergreen plastic sheets. Painted plain flat black, this tone will be lightened up somewhat by drybrushing greys. Don't look yet at where the nose section ends, I'll explain that in a later post.

 

35010634393_bea71c7c84_c.jpg

 

The exhaust parts have been painted in the same flat black and I'll use different colours to add effects, by drybrushing as well.

 

35010630673_3ee78a32e4_c.jpg

 

The cockpit tub and Martin Baker's famous Pavla Mk4 ejection seat.

 

35010629913_e7762298c4_c.jpg

 

Here's the ailerons cut out -they will be positioned ever so slightly off set, to break up the monotony of straight edges. Lots of F1s had that when parked.

 

35820615285_5eb158bc96_c.jpg

 

On to a particular problem with SH's lower wing parts. I'll copy paste parts of something I wrote on another thread because I am a lazy b'stard sometimes: 

A word of warning regarding the wings: the bottom wing parts need LOTS of sanding not only to eliminate an ugly step but also because the wings will look too thick otherwise -They need to be sanded down on the inside (the area that's going to get glue on it) - but they really need to be sanded down dramatically for the step to be eliminated. 

 

That's not all. I found some rigorous sanding was still necessary on the outside of the part, ie. the part that doesn't get any glue on it, in other words I ended up sanding ridiculous amounts both sides of the part with 80 grit thereby destroying all surface detail but at least the wing looks suitably thin as they should. 

 

That's still not all! The area of the bottom near the leading edge of the inner part of the wing, ie between the dogtooth and fuselage, is quite a bother though. That area needs particular sanding down and viewed from front could also do with a sharper edge. Additionally the edge should sit higher than the original SH part. It's a quite simple process of sanding the bottom parts upwards till they meet the desired line where the edge should be.

 

- - In case you have no idea what I'm on about here's an illustration. First an image from my earlier Mirage F1B build (horrid quality sorry) -look at the area between dogtooth and fuselage and then look at the same of the real thing (taken from the great abpic.co.uk):

 

35432729740_3edc51bc11_c.jpg

 

1388367-large.jpg

 

Here I hope to adequately show you the trimmed down wings.

 

35010628313_896401fec8_c.jpg

 

Jay

 

 

Edited by Mountain goat

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Posted (edited)

[WARNING from down below - for the F1C-200 version DO NOT add extra plastic. I misinterpreted some things.]

 

A small follow up post. As I'm building the F.1C-200, which was a version with plumbing for in flight refuelling in the nose, the nose section needs lengthening by 1.1 mm. Just 1 mm will do fine though. I attached two .5 mm discs to the fuselage and nose sections and added plastic strips inside to strengthen the bond with the grey plastic. Also apparent in this pic is the IFR probe which I removed from the part that had the probe on it, thinking it would brake off anyway so why bother using that part. I'll probably make attachment points for it and test fit a lot and attach it at the very last moment.

 

35011821743_6599c1f028_c.jpg

 

And finally here's the instrument panel with radar scope cover added. All this needs lots of weathering so stay tuned.

 

35781321606_46bafbf0f8_c.jpg 

 

That's it for now.

Jay

Edited by Mountain goat

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Jay,

 

Don't want to be the bringer of bad news but I thought the kit had the longer fuselage of the -200 airframes, I thought it needed shortening to make an early F1C...  ...at least that's what I think the Cocardes book says??:unsure:

 

I'm quite unsure now...

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Some nice fettling going on there Jay, the instrument panel looks great

 

:thumbsup:

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I'm enjoying reading this and the helpful pictures Jay. 

I've never made a Mirage and have a Special Hobby one here. Learning a lot from your build.

 

The wing surgery looks scary, brave man :o! They will look a lot better with the thickness reduced like this :thumbsup2: 

 

Best regards

TonyT

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Wez said:

Jay,

 

Don't want to be the bringer of bad news but I thought the kit had the longer fuselage of the -200 airframes, I thought it needed shortening to make an early F1C...  ...at least that's what I think the Cocardes book says??:unsure:

 

I'm quite unsure now...

 

Initially I thought so too. But then I revisited this rumourmonger post from someone who might be yourself :lol: and I started to hesitate myself. Cross-pollination of Doubt I guess..! By the way, that particular page deserves a read through as the length issue is discussed at some breadth. So the gist of the argument is: SH has provided the correct cut off point where the lengthened noses were installed in the C-200 version. Only the nose itself is still vanilla F1C length.

 

Still not sure, I then proceeded to put the SH fuselage with a nose part taped to it next to a Hasegawa F1C fuselage which as far as length goes looks pretty accurate for an F1C (highly scientific I know) - and indeed: same length! 

 

Then I compared these pics of an F1C and F1CR, which is similar to the F1C-200 -  - thanks to @Laurent in the aforementioned Rumourmonger thread:

 

On 2016-4-22 at 0:32 AM, Laurent said:

8cm = 1.1mm. Not big. What is more visible is the difference in panel lines.

Non-extended nose: http://walkarounds.scalemodels.ru/v/walkarounds/avia/after_1950/mirage_f1_001/France_05+537.jpg.html

Extended nose (notice the oblique panel line visualizing an added skin): http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_colin3/mirage_f-1cr/images/mirage_f-1cr_04_of_49.jpg

 

Having a look at the F1C, I noticed the point where the windshield frame almost touches the Cyrano radar panel line - that distance seems greater on the F1CR/ F1C-200 though there's a big IFR probe in the way - still. The Special Hobby parts seem to be based on the former arrangement, as the forward part of the windshield barely touches the panel in front of it.

 

The panel line, when reinstated after lengthening the nose, should run at the rear of the extra plastic.

 

I wish I had more time so I could use images to illustrate my point. Hopefully all this makes sense. But again -I'm not sure about all of this. Good thing is, if I'm wrong I only have to remove plastic. Even if its only a mm.

 

EDIT: I found a slightly better picture of the lengthened nose in relation to the windscreen framing -zoom in to the area in question:

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_colin3/mirage_f-1m_c.14/images/mirage_f-1m_c.14_08_of_74.jpg

 

Jay

 

 

 

Edited by Mountain goat

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Jay,

 

Never heard of that bloke in the thread you quoted, strange geezer whoever he is.

 

Anyway, whoever that strange person was, he's now received the Cocardes book on the Mirage F1 which has a build of the SH kit as F1C no 45 - very definitely a short fuselage aircraft.  In the article there's an English caption stating "This model needs to shorten the nose of about 1mm if you decide to make a short fuselage without air refuelling capacities", hence my confusion :unsure:, the caption accompanies a picture showing before (per kit), and after (shortened).

 

What does this all mean?  I don't know, was the old Hasegawa kit secretly a C-200 and we all thought otherwise, are Cocardes wrong?  One thing for sure, I'm now going to translate the build article from French to see if it provides justification.  The annoying thing for me is not knowing which is wrong or which is right, the next thing will be an executive decision what to do about it.

 

Confused of Wessex (Wez)

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Wez said:

What does this all mean? 

 

I wish I knew :lol:

 

BUT. Some more evidence against the book: have a look at this pic:

mirage_f-1cr_04_of_49.jpg

 

The IFR probe sits in front of the Cyrano installation panel line. In the SH kit it very goes over it by a mm or so.

 

I don't think this is a mistake on Special Hobby's part (-I mean what is 1 mm?) but more the result of a process of compromise and finding a balance between affordability and ease of build.

 

Jay

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@Mountain goat Jay, happy to take physical evidence over all else, I'll take a look later and compare it to that photo, then I'll have to decide what to do about it.  Thanks for taking the time and effort on this.

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I think the question is: Should we shorten or lengthen the model or simply rewrite the panel lines according to the version chosen?
I mean, maybe SH has chosen the good lenght for a C-200 and in that case, you have to rewrite the line in front of the windshield. Or not only the lenght is wrong but also the line is misplaced...

 

On the real aircraft, the nose is the same whatever the version, so you can see a CR nose on a B version... However, between C and C-200 the difference is 8 cm and to obtain this lengthening, the first frame of the fuselage, where the nose is attached has been moved forward of these 8 cm.

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Posted (edited)
On 2017-7-10 at 10:04 AM, eclipse said:

I think the question is: Should we shorten or lengthen the model or simply rewrite the panel lines according to the version chosen?

 

Thanks for your input - Well actually I have grown very much convinced that in order to make an accurate F1C-200 the diagonal cut off point absolutely needs a millimeter extra as all the panel lines there show this to be necessary I believe. I will post some pictures to illustratie all this lark either tomorrow or even today if I have time.

 

[I've grown wiser in the mean time - for the F1C-200 version DO NOT add extra plastic. I misinterpreted some things.]

 

However - In regard to the overall fuselage length and length of the nose section as a whole. Let's assume that lengthwise, when assembled, the SH fuselage corresponds to the F1C-200, and overall the length should stay the same as it came in the box if you want an accurate F1C-200. I say the added 1 mm then should be taken away somewhere else in the nose section. The radome looks fine... BUT I am looking at the Cyrano radar installation, the part just behind the radome. Can't help suspecting the Cyrano section is a tad too long/ wide (depending how you look at it) in the SH kit. Will look into this in more depth later on.

 

(Already hearing: Oh come on Jay this is getting ridiculous :P

 

EDIT: see below, I was wrong to assume the nose needed to be lengthened - it's the Cyrano panel lines that fooled me.

 

Jay

Edited by Mountain goat

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According to this picture, maybe rewrite the frame 1 line,  which clearly needs to be moved forward (just in front of the IFR probe), could be sufficient,  without modifying the overall lenght ? :hmmm:

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Posted (edited)
On 2017-7-10 at 0:12 PM, eclipse said:

According to this picture, maybe rewrite the frame 1 line,  which clearly needs to be moved forward (just in front of the IFR probe), could be sufficient,  without modifying the overall lenght ? :hmmm:

 

Yes, you are right. I was doing an errand just now (got the day off kind of) on the bike and during biking I thought of exactly that. So yes, the overall length of the Special Hobby nose is probably correct for the F1C-200, F1CR and F1CT, but the rear Cyrano panel line is too far backwards, making it look like the whole nose is too short. I was confused by that (see post further on).

 

So again you mean this - the simple way (the preferred choice!) (move panel line forward to red line):

 

35026693053_989e1a4cb0_c.jpg 

 

But because I have already added 1 mm of plastic to the nose, I am going to do this (the complicated way) (the green line represents the location the panel line should be):

 

35836432445_74905e5ba4_c.jpg

 

SO YES ECLIPSE - the ideal solution is exactly is you describe. 

 

Sorry for the confusion guys. [So - for the F1C-200 version DO NOT add extra plastic. I misinterpreted some things.]

 

Jay

 

 

Edited by Mountain goat
edited for extra clarity

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1 hour ago, Dadas said:

Maybe these photos will help you make the decision.

 

Regards

Adam

 

Very helpful indeed! Nice pics.

 

Jay

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31 minutes ago, Mountain goat said:

Sorry for the confusion guys.

 

Still confused :banghead:

 

The blue diagonal line which represents a pane line present on the longer airframe gets filled - not the whole line surely?

 

The green line represents a panel line which gets moved aft by 1mm and the original kit panel line filled.

 

The orange line is only there because you've already lengthened the nose and you now need to remove it?  If we haven't added the 1mm we don't need to take it out.

 

So, if I understand this correctly:

 

1.  Move the vertical panel line which represents the Cyrano housing rear aft panel line back 1mm to the green line point and fill the original.

 

2.  Fill some of the blue line at a point above the green line?

 

All of this is quite bewildering and I know about aircraft!

 

One good thing is I haven't started my F1 yet so if I wait long enough, between you and Andrew will have ironed out all of the quirks of this kit!  Thanks guys!!:thumbsup:

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16 minutes ago, Wez said:

 

Still confused :banghead:

 

Yes I know, sorry about that. I have amended the images in the earlier post to better illustrate what I mean.

 

What I am saying is this:

-I was probably wrong on the fuselage length - the kit does not need lengthening to represent an F1C-200.

-Comparing pics of the real aircraft and the kit I noticed the IFR probe and windscreen were too close to the Cyrano radar panel line on the kit (next to the red line in the first image), so I assumed the nose part needed an extra 1 mm to create space btween IFR probe/ windscreen and radar.

-But I was wrong. Turns out, the panel line itself is too far backward. The Cyrano area (right behind the radome) is too long and the rear panel line should be relocated 1 mm forward.

-As I've already added 1 mm to the nose, and because I don't want to remove the plasticard, I need to go about another more complicated route, see the bottom image in the earlier post

-Ergo -don't add 1mm to anything, just move the rear Cyrano radar panel line forward by a mm and all is well again.

 

Jay

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3 minutes ago, Mountain goat said:

-Ergo -don't add 1mm to anything, just move the rear Cyrano radar panel line forward by a mm and all is well again.

 

Gotcha!

 

Thanks.

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Posted (edited)

Some progress. First off the cockpit is installed.

 

35744955681_0772a7cee5_c.jpg

 

The instrument panel was painted black, I used the kit-provided instrument panel decal which I toned down and blended in somewhat by using thinned down Vallejo black. 

 

35744954881_c871353309_c.jpg 

 

The nose was attached in a roundabout way simply because I had already glued plasticard to it - which you should not, it was my silly mistake.

 

35037095164_a8f9bd8a17_c.jpg

 

The fin was installed after closing up the fuselage.

 

35744956281_5b2e17838c_c.jpg 

 

And this is the Mirage as it is now.

 

35067049793_850d4b1885_c.jpg

 

The intakes will be attached next. First the interception light transparencies need an appropriate background, for which I used aluminium tape. The transparencies were glued with PVA glue. Edges will be closed off with CA glue and everything will be sanded down to make it smooth.

 

35707277062_d6af80f6fd_c.jpg

 

Back to work! Thanks for looking.

 

Jay

Edited by Mountain goat

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Great work Jay, the horizontal antennae on the fin are ILS/VOR LOC (localiser) antenna.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wez said:

Great work Jay, the horizontal antennae on the fin are ILS/VOR LOC (localiser) antenna.

 

Thanks Wez.

 

So I settled for this example:

F1%20ORANGE%20HANGARETTE.jpg

 

...which carries a Matra R.530 on the centreline pylon.

 

I was wondering if anyone can direct me to the dimensions/ drawing of the LM 37 pylon. Thanks in advance!

 

Jay

Edited by Mountain goat

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Really some seriously good work that you have carried out especially in and around the cockpit.

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