Chillidragon Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) I have started a pair of builds, one of the Revell model (with the cockpit pre-assembled and painted grey, so it will have to be a iiiS) and a Heller IIIE/R/RD?5BA (to be a iiiR, maybe RD). Now; I'm fine with the S, unless someone can tell me the dimensions of the pylons for the Falcons; I have a pair, and the Matterhorn decal sheet. The R: I always fancied building one of these with the heap of ordnance included with the Revell kit (the Heller non-drop, supersonic tanks going onto the S) but, despite text references assuring me that I can, I've never actually seen one so encumbered. Anyone know any different, or shall I just get another kit and build a iiiE? (Least appealing possibility, given that I have a iiiC to build as well, probably as the mount of either Lt Tanguy or Laverdure - thus giving my age away!) Cheers, all! I might add that the iiiS is a very special build, and the idea of using up the load follows on from this. Edited June 27, 2017 by Chillidragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme H Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Interesting choices there Just be aware that the Heller Supersonic tanks are about 5mm too long, and the 1700L tanks are massively oversize in every dimension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Great subject choices! Why don't you come across to the Mirage Group Build and do them there? Mirage GB here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, but I've never seen an armed III-R. Makes sense as all users also had fully combat capable III-E or 5 in service at the same time as the R and weapons would have been better used on these variants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Thanks, all. I'll do bit of surgery on the tanks, then, and perhaps a new iiiE. I really do want to use up the bits. I prefer the Revell tanks with the vertical fins - I think they're an older pattern, and I have seen them on a iiiR. The large Heller ones look rather like RAF ferry tanks (except for size), as included with the old Airfix Harrier; were these NATO standard? I don't do well at group builds, but I'll have a look. Just found a iv on Amazon, too well priced. Ah, well. Wifey's fault for sending me to get her a new trackball. A couple of references also bought, but it seems they're in French. Serves her right; it's one of her main working languages so she can put up with me using her as a living dictionary/grammar... Edited June 28, 2017 by Chillidragon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivand Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 On 28/06/2017 at 9:48 AM, Giorgio N said: but I've never seen an armed III-R. Makes sense as all users also had fully combat capable III-E or 5 in service at the same time as the R and weapons would have been better used on these variants IIRC, at the occasion of the last big outing of the Belgian Mirage 5, a detachment composed of 5BA and BR models were sent out to Diyarbakir air base in Turkey during the 1991 Gulf War in the context of the protection of the Southern flank of NATO. The aircraft all carried AIM 9J missiles, including the reconnaissance birds. I'm sure I have a photo of this somewhere, but I'l have to look around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 Ah; yes, I've also seen the iiiRS with sidewinders. It seems recce aircraft were/are by no means universally toothless; mirages kept their cannon at least. I've read that USAF and Heyl haAvir RF-4 Phantoms were wired for a sidewinder on each inner wing pylon (and I have seen photographic evidence of an Israeli example) but Iranian aircraft, for example, were not. I have also seen film of a Harrier GR.1 with drop tanks, Matra SNEB pods and a Vinten camera pod on a simulated recce mission. But I'm not sure about sidewinders for my iiiR. To be honest, nor am I sure about adding them to my iiiC. Any thoughts on an AS 30 on the centreline of a iiiE with wing tanks/bombs? I have my iv; when I read the instructions and spotted the payload I must admit to having felt a bit of a chill about 'mushroom farming' in Eastern Europe... Or anywhere, for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 AFAIK several air forces actively prohibited their recce drivers being provided with AAM's even for for self defence, out of fear that a hotshot pilot would prefer shooting down an enemy fighter rather than getting the photos home. Cheers, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAGATIGER Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 (edited) Hi there Cillidraggon Well let me say that I believe I have a PJ conversion at the stash in 1/72 wonderful scale to trade if you interested as I not sure to use it (it became in a buggle of kits from a trade), so I can look at it but not sure where it is at the moment!!! For sure I have some decals to spare too Best modelling Armando Edited July 5, 2017 by RAGATIGER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 Gracias, Armando! The full IIIRS conversion is too late for my collection (1969) and the Heller nose is fine, but thank you for the offer. If, however, you have decals for the red stripes and intake surrounds on the bare metal versions, I would indeed be interested. I have received one of the references; it is in French, and wifey is unable to help. When I suggested some translations of ordnance types her response was "but I don't know what that is in English". I have some French myself so I'm on my own. Frustratingly, it's a good book, full of photographs - but no dates! Zut alors! It covers the IIIE, RD and M5. If anyone is interested, I'll post a translation of the pages on weapon loadouts. I hadn't thought of the hazard of recce pilots getting carried away, Andre. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivand Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Mirage 5BR with AIM-9. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 On 27/06/2017 at 10:36 PM, Chillidragon said: Heller IIIE/R/RD?5BA (to be a iiiR, maybe RD). I'm looking forward to this one Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 8 hours ago, ivand said: Mirage 5BR with AIM-9. You're to be congratulated on your persistence in finding this photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 12 hours ago, ivand said: Mirage 5BR with AIM-9 The 5BR, and in fact any R-model Mirage , just looks right, doesn't it? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 And so it continues; the IIIS has been undercoated for its first coat of Metalcote; I've found that this won't stick to gloss paint at all, but only to a dead matte finish. I'm going to use the first two, bright and dull aluminium, whilst trying to brush the differently shaded panels perpendicular to each other; I think that is one reason the panels appear variegated, due to the polarisation of reflected light. I think the direction in which the panels were milled or rolled, or otherwise treated, might be the cause of this. If anyone knows for certain, please do share. I started the IVA whilst giving the IIIS time for the undercoat to cure; this will also be NFM, and with the AN-22. It's a bit cathartic. The IIIE (I bought another Revell kit) and IIIR will be grey and green upper, aluminium primer (I think - an old Heller instruction sheet called it Gris Perle - i.e. Pearl Grey) underside. Ordnance as appropriate; possibly NFM on the tanks. No fireworks on the R, though the RD was wired for a "Bombe Nucleaire". I had wondered if the inclusion of the Marconi Doppler Radar was to enable the RD to tool up for strike missions, but now I've read through the text I see that the upgrade was intended to equip the RD for night reconnaissance. It also notes that the outer wing stations have never been seen loaded. Frustratingly, being vol. 2 the book covers the IIIE, RD, BD, and M5. Vol. 1 has the IIIC, R, and B. Since the IIIR was built on the IIIE airframe, I expected it in the volume which I bought. C'est bien mon chance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivand Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 On 19/7/2017 at 6:07 PM, Wez said: You're to be congratulated on your persistence in finding this photo. Thank you, wasn't too hard, really. Pour la petite histoire, as they say, it might seem odd to have "mud movers" and recce planes fly CAP missions on NATO's south flank during Desert Storm. In fact, the Belgian air force didn't send any of its F-16s to Turkey, as they were devoid of any ECM system at that time. The Mirage 5 on the other hand, were equipped with the LORAL Rapport II system. Even so, the Mirage 5 clearly had a fighter pedigree, it was fast and had two 30mm cannons apart from the Sidewinders. The pilots also trained at DACT and air-to-air firing in Corsica. I suppose they still stood a fighting chance in old-fashioned visual contact encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivand Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 On 19/7/2017 at 10:15 PM, RidgeRunner said: The 5BR, and in fact any R-model Mirage , just looks right, doesn't it? Martin They do, don't they? I also think the Mirage 5 (and any other variant without the "Cyrano" nose) look more sleek and elegant than the IIIC and E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivand Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 19 hours ago, Chillidragon said: Frustratingly, being vol. 2 the book covers the IIIE, RD, BD, and M5. Vol. 1 has the IIIC, R, and B. Since the IIIR was built on the IIIE airframe, I expected it in the volume which I bought. C'est bien mon chance! On the bright side of things, it gives you an excuse to buy vol. 1 too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 I'm not sure, esteemed comrades, of the wisdom of speaking disrespectfully of 'Cyrano's Nose'... I already have a book on the IIIC en route, but from a different series. Probably also in French. Hit a bump: Heller and others are convinced that the cockpit and instrument panels of the III and IV should be black. Revell thought grey for the IIIE/R/S/RS; true for the Swiss variants, hence my choice. The article I read on the Swiss builds did say that this differs from the French. Now; trying to decide how to paint the panels on the IVA, I found references on the net which show the panels in grey, cockpit sides in black. Anyone know if this was so in the 1960s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squezzer Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 The cockpit color was overall black in Mirages IVA, it was blue-grey in the IVP with black consoles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted July 24, 2017 Author Share Posted July 24, 2017 Ah; excellent. I suspected and hoped as much, in equal measure. All together now: #I see a grey part and I want to paint it black No puzzling anymore, the cockpit should be black. I see instruction sheets from those French Heller kits were right to call for black on Armee de L'aire cockpits... With all respect and apologies to the Rolling Stones, of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Update: IIIS - some filling needed on seams, using Deluxe Materials Perfect Plastic putty. It isn't; it handles like dental dressing material, but without the spicy clove aroma. (why am I now hearing Brian Eno's Prophecy Theme in the back of my mind and thinking of sand, sand, and yet more sand..? Endless sand... And now porridge oats...) Anyway, spot of abrasive (no, not sand paper) gently applied later, then more undercoat. IVA - sorry I started it instead of continuing the IIIR. But not sorry I bought it. Alignment problems on the fuselage aplenty. Still at the Mr. Dissolved Putty stage. And more abrasive. IIIR - I did send for the first volume of the French work. The English volume has much less technical detail but the photographs are dated and so I can work out the approximate livery dates on the references in the French volumes. the artwork on IIIR liveries shows one wearing JL 100 launcher/drop tank combinations, but mine are earmarked for Lt. Tanguy's IIIC, from the Berne Decals sheet. (Lt. Laverdure, for those who know what I'm rambling about, was in Patrouille de France by that point in the series.) It still proceeds, but a much lower pace. No work on the IIIC or IIIE yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillidragon Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 I thought I should mention that, lacking facilities for indoor spraying, this build has been suspended until better weather permits 'blowing all hatches'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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