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FLCH

Trident question

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FLCH    31

Started to build the F-Resin Trident 3B, but found the wings were very warped, my question is can you use the Airfix wings, tailplane and engines ? I did read the 3 had a larger wing chord but the sizes on both kits looked identical.

I did notice the F-Resin had a cranked wing and the fence was in a different location.

Also did the 3 have unequal fairings as I understand the Trident 1 (or was it 2 ?) housed the APU in one of the fairings hence differing lengths ?

Thanks in advance !

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Eric Mc    1,286
Posted (edited)

I have both kits. I am pretty familiar with the Airfix kit (I've built a few  over the years although all of those builds have long been consigned to that kit heaven in the sky.

The Airfix kit has quite a few "issues" that need addressing if you want an accurate rendition of an actual Trident 1C.

 

i) the shape of the centre engine air intake is not quite right and could do with a bit of reprofiling

 

ii) the nose wheel on the real Trident was offset to one side and retracted sideways into the nosewheel bay. Airfix incorrectly placed the wheel in the centre (like a normal airliner). This is an easy fix as all you have to do is fill the incorrect location hole and drill out a new one in the right place

 

iii) the wing root fairings on the trailing edge of the wings were different on each side. Airfix have them identical.

 

iv) the Trident has slight dihedral on the outer two thirds of the wings. Airfix omitted this feature.

 

v) the wing fences need relocating ( a common problem on Airfix airliners)

 

v) the flight deck windows are a poor fit and don't give a very good rendition of the rather unique window arrangement used on the Trident. If you are using decals for the flight deck and cabin windows, the poor cockpit glazing isn't going to be of any importance.

 

vi) the wingtips may need extending. Later versions of the Trident (the 1E, 2E and 3B) all had extended wing tips. I'm not sure if Airfix's depiction of the wings is 100% accurate for a 1C. If you are do intend to build a 1E or 2E then the wing tips would definitely need extending. The 1E and 2E had the same fuselage length as the 1C. Their main upgrade was in engine power and differing cockpit layouts - which varied from customer to customer.

 

The APU of the Trident 1C was originally located under the centre fuselage. It turned out that this was not such a good idea as the jet exhaust was a bit close to people working around the aircraft on the ramp and the exhaust also impinged on the ramp surface. It was decided to move it to a new location in a streamlined fairing at the base of the tail fin.

 

Even though I have the F-RSIN 3B, I haven't really examined it in detail. Because it is a much more recent kit I would expect that it is overall more true to the real Trident 3B than Airfix's 1C was to the actual 1C. Obviously, it is technically a short run kit so will have other issues to contend with. It sounds like it does feature the wing dihedral omitted by Airfix.

 

As I'm sure you know, the 3B featured the RB162 boost engine in the tail. This meant the APU had to be moved to a new position (again), which was in the centre engine intake with the exhaust venting upwards.

 

Some Trident discussion on this site from 2012 -

 

 

 

Edited by Eric Mc

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FLCH    31

Thanks for the quick reply ! Appreciate the info.

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Eric Mc    1,286

No worries. I'm a big fan of the Trident. When I was a spotty spotter in the 1970s they were frequent visitors (a handful a day) into Dublin Airport. When I started spotting (1972) they were still BEA machines but over the next few years they went through various markings permutations as BEA was gradually absorbed into the new British Airways. I finally managed to get one flight in a Trident  (1981) - a Trident 2 operating from Heathrow to Dublin.

 

It wallowed around quite a lot on approach as it was a very windy day - not unusual for Dublin.

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Skodadriver    1,829

I built the F-RSIN Trident a few years ago and had no real problems with it apart from the normal issues associated with limited-run moulding.

 

If the wings are warped to the point they're unusable my advice would be to contact Laurent Herjean who runs F-RSIN and send him a couple of photos of the problem.  Laurent is normally very helpful.  

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JosephLalor    223
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Eric Mc said:

No worries. I'm a big fan of the Trident. When I was a spotty spotter in the 1970s they were frequent visitors (a handful a day) into Dublin Airport. When I started spotting (1972) they were still BEA machines but over the next few years they went through various markings permutations as BEA was gradually absorbed into the new British Airways. I finally managed to get one flight in a Trident  (1981) - a Trident 2 operating from Heathrow to Dublin.

 

It wallowed around quite a lot on approach as it was a very windy day - not unusual for Dublin.

I remember spotting at Dublin myself one afternoon in the late 1970s or maybe early 80s.  Largely BA Tridents and Aer Lingus 737s, but there was also a Handley Page Herald - British Air Ferries I think.

Edited by JosephLalor

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Eric Mc    1,286

Hi Jo.

 

Heralds were a common sight too. My earliest memory of a Herald was from a family visit to the airport in 1969. I clearly remember that the Herald was in BUA CI (British United Airways Channel Islands) colours.

 

By the time I was into spotting properly, BUACI had left the British United/Caledonian Group and was operating independently as British Island Airways in a smart new red/orange colour scheme. They operated out of Dublin to Blackpool, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

 

BAF acquired a couple of Heralds but they were never major operators. British Midland had a couple as well. Considering how few Heralds were actually built, it's amazing the number of airlines that used them.

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viscount806x    522

The 3B had a similar wing but it was fitted at a slightly increased incidence to the fuselage fore/aft datum. This can be seen on the rear wing to body fairing at the rear inner trailing edges. The wing fences are different as is the leading edge arrangement - the 1C had a simple droop which didn't help the short field performance very much.  ALL other variants (inc. 1E) had l/e slats which were not segmented at the same points as the droop segments on the 1C. Filling and rescribing would be required to correct this.  Passenger window arrangements vary between variants, photos will help you here. The rudder on the 3B is shorter because the bottom of it got truncated to accommodate the RB162 boost engine. This gave the 3B a far worse crosswind limit than the others coincidentally. Others have mentioned the Kuchemann wingtips on the 2E onwards, not fitted to 1C or 1E ever. Later removed from the 2E and 3B fleet during the awful wing mods required following the 'Rib 8' wing cracks found in 1977. If you model a 3B as it appears after 1977 then you would be quite correct to depict the wingtips as the same as the 1C. Oddly, the 1C and 1E fleets were fine and crack free here, lower operating weights probably saved them. 

 

I believe the Chinese fleet of 1E, 2E and 3B were never given the wing modifications because cracks weren't found on any of them but I'm not really sure on that one. I've certainly seen late images of a couple which had retained the Kuchemann wingtips when the BA fleet lost theirs. 

 

As an aside on the Kuchemann wingtips, it would seem that the RAF Buccaneer fleet also lost their (similar) wingtips after the mod programme which tried to prevent any more losses like the Red Flag incident where one of them shed a wing during manoeuvring at low level. I guess it helped a bit on relieving bending stresses on the rest of the wing. This is certainly why Tridents lost theirs but they had other stuff done too which completely destroyed any semblances of economic operations - but that is a story for another day.

 

Sorry to go on a bit but I was very close and intimate to the Trident in it's later days as a ground (avionic etc.) engineer. It was a great aircraft for being fixable, well developed by BEA over the years and shedloads of spares! The best of the lot was the 2E, best reliability and easiest to work on and, due to it's longer routes, better catering left on board when it came back to us for the night!

Nige B

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bzn20    2,057
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, viscount806x said:

Nige B

 

Great info. Didn't know most of that ! never had anything to do with them and one of the few airliner types I've never even been on.

Trident like the VC10 wrecked by the lead customer.

Edited by bzn20

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FLCH    31

Thanks for the detailed info , this forum is such a wealth of facts and figures ! 

The Trident is one of my favorite airplanes always looking up in the sky as a kid seeing those red wings against the blue sky. 

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Eric Mc    1,286

Went to a talk a few weeks ago here in Farnborough given by the writer of this book -

 

9780711021327-uk.jpg

 

It was very entertaining. There were over 200 people in the room, many who had either flown or worked on Tridents so the question and answer session was very good.

The original spec for the DH121 would have produced an aeroplane that probably would have been a better seller - although that will never be known. The fundamental problem was that De Havilland had not really canvassed other airlines as to what they might want in an aircraft like this so bent over backwards to accommodate BEA's requirements.

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viscount806x    522
14 hours ago, FLCH said:

 

The Trident is one of my favorite airplanes always looking up in the sky as a kid seeing those red wings against the blue sky. 

Or, yellow wings against the blue sky!

 

Sorry, my BA origins were from Northeast/BKS, one of the constituent airline companies which formed BA initially, not just BEA and BOAC as is often quoted but also Cambrian and Northeast.. Yet another tale for another day!

Nige B

 

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Eric Mc    1,286

Yes - yellow Viscounts against a blue sky. What a pleasant teenage memory.

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bzn20    2,057
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, viscount806x said:

Cambrian and Northeast

 

Remember they became BAS towards the end ? British Air Services I think. Then Orange ish Red Cambrian and Yellow NE

Edited by bzn20

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Eric Mc    1,286

At the risk of further deviation - does anybody have any model or Halford paint matches for Northeast yellow or Cambrian orange?

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Rb277170    9
Posted (edited)

Having looked at Halfords for a Viscount project I was wondering if Ford Carnival Red would do it, but I hasten to add that I haven't bought it and tried it yet. I have 3 S and M Viscount kits and one of them is certainly destined for Cambrian . I got the Cambrian/Northeast decals from 26 decals . Maybe Skodadriver can tell us what he used. I've seen his very nice 1-11 srs 400  in Cambrian livery. 

 

Having looked at the 26 decals painting guide it just says gloss orange

Edited by Rb277170

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Rb277170    9

Meanwhile , back at the Trident 3. FLCH are you sure the distortion you are seeing on the wings is not just the dihedral that trident 3s have. I bought an F-RSIN BEA Trident 3 kit at Perth last month and have just had a look at it . While the wings appear kinked but I think this is the way it's supposed to be .  I''m happy I bought it , but I got carried away with enthusiasm and realised I need to try something simpler first, so this ones on the back burner until I'm sure I can make a reasonable job of it. BEA Speedjack Tridents one of my favourites . Although I have heard that Pilots said they relied on the curvature of the earth to get airborne! 

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Scimitar    2,366
6 minutes ago, Rb277170 said:

I have heard that Pilots said they relied on the curvature of the earth to get airborne!

My mate Peter called it 'The Gripper'. but not sure if that was a common nickname.

The APU on the 3 saved the aircraft one night on take-off from Zurich with a full load.

An engine failed on take off and he used the APU to keep them airborne long enough to get it back on the ground.

That's the abbreviated version..the real thing must have been an occasion when the guys upfront earned their pay.

He has many tales of the Trident but of all the BEA aircraft he flew he loved the Vanguard.

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bzn20    2,057
Posted (edited)

You can't get any thrust from an APU that would make any difference  unless you're mixing it up with the RB162, the (4th) booster engine which seems more likely.

The 3B should have been called the Quadrant

Edited by bzn20

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Eric Mc    1,286

Yes - I've heard the Trident 3 being referred to as The Gripper or The Ground Gripper.

 

The APU on a 3 wouldn't provide any useful thrust. It was too weedy for a start and the exhaust vented upwards rather than backwards. He must have been referring to the RB162 booster jet - which was designed specifically to provide additional thrust on take off.

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Scimitar    2,366

bzn20 and Eric Mc

That makes more sense. 

Of course it would have to be the booster engine..my mistake!

1 hour ago, bzn20 said:

should been called the Quadrant

I like that!

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viscount806x    522
4 hours ago, bzn20 said:

 

Remember they became BAS towards the end ? British Air Services I think. Then Orange ish Red Cambrian and Yellow NE

 

Not quite bzn. BAS was born back in the 1960s around 1967 if memory serves. It was a loose grouping of Cambrian and BKS and BEA had a 51% (controlling) interest in it. Otherwise both airlines continued independantly. BEA did impose some decisions though and supplied Viscount V806X fleet replacements to both airlines paid, no doubt, with 'wooden dollars' (in house credit transfers). Also, and you might find this one interesting, it was said that BEA blocked a hoped for deal by BKS for B737s and instead imposed the Trident 1E. That might be a conspiracy theory but we in the airline heard it often and believed it at the time. The hangar at Southend was measured for it apparently. Anyway, BAS persisted and appeared in print on the aircraft in early 1978, persisting after the BKS name change to Northeast and the Cambrian reversion back to Cambrian titling again but in small lettering. We went Orange (Cambrian) and Yellow (Northeast) in early 1972 and early 1971 respectively and thus it stayed until BA was born in 1973 and gradually all went to Speedbird colours but still with initially small Northeast and Cambrian on the forward fuselage sides.

 

Nige B

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bzn20    2,057

Yes I roughly remember BAS came along around 68 or at least I got a Viscount postcard around that time with British air Services titling on the white top. Like you mentioned ,the titles and schemes seemed to be ever changing in the 60s. I could believe that 737 story. I heard that BEA didn't really want the 1-11 , preferring the 737 but Govt pressure falling £ against the $ . Harold Wilson at the IMF and devaluing  in 1967etc. got the "Super one-Eleven".

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Eric Mc    1,286

When I started spotting in 1972 I remember seeing the words "British Air Services" printed in fairly small letters on the nose of Viscounts just above the nose wheel doors.

 

As the merger into British Airways progressed, the wording on the nose was changed to "British Airways", still in small letters - and later the large font British Airways lettering was applied to the roof of the aircraft, replacing the original "Cambrian" or "Northeast" wording.

 

 

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