Help Needed - 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry

[Brasso27]

Hi All, 
Looking for some info on the vehicle marking system used by the 1st NHY on and after D Day. 
I know that they were one of the units which used the unofficial system of large numerals on the turret sides to designate which troop each tank was from. As the official marking system only went as far as the squadron, sub-squadron markings, (i.e. for troops and tanks), were at the discretion of the unit, and so varied widely. 
Some units numbers all tanks sequentially, so numbers 1-4 were in the first troop, 5-8 in the second troop etc. I suspect this is the system the NHY used, but have been unable to cofnirm this. Can anyone help? 
Thanks in advance. 

[JackG]

From a posting at the WW2talk forums:

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/33rd-ab-help-op-totalise.59781/#post-696395

 

 

1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry - 'C' Squadron tank names / numbers - 7th/8th August 1944

1 Troop
43 - COTTESBROOK (1 - Troop Commander)
44 - CULWORTH (1A - Troop Sergeant)
45 - CATESBY (1B - Troop Corporal)
46 - CHIPPING WARDEN (1C - Firefly)

2 Troop
47 - SULGRAVE (2 - Troop Commander)
48 - Not known (2A - Troop Sergeant) Could be SPRATTON or STAVERTON ?
49 - Not known (2B - Troop Corporal) Could be SPRATTON or STAVERTON ?
50 - STONY STRATFORD (2C - Firefly)

3 Troop
51 - HELMDON (3 - Troop Commander) WD No. T232724
52 - Not Known (3A - Troop Sergeant)
53 - HELLIDON (3B - Troop Corporal) Sherman 75mm M4 Hybrid
54 - HANGING HOUGHTON (3C - Firefly) WD No. T148855

4 Troop
55 - LILLINGSTONE (4 - Troop Commander)
56 - LAMPORT (4A - Troop Sergeant)
57 - LITCHBOROUGH (4B - Troop Corporal)
58 - LONG BUCKLEY (4C - Firefly)

HQ Troop
59 - BUCKINGHAM (Squadron Commander)
60 - BRACKLEY (Captain)
61 - BRIXWORTH (Rear Link) WD No. T263281

 

 

------------------------------------

 

There is also this famous firefly, but I haven't been able to find the actual wartime photo:

 

regards,

Jack

Edited June 21, 2017 by JackG

[Brasso27]

You're a gent. Really appreciate it. Many thanks. 

[Brasso27]

OK, based on the information provided it seems to me that the Regimental numbering system for tanks was as follows; 

HQ Squadron: 1-4

A Squadron:

No. 1 Troop 5-8

No. 2 Troop 9-12
No. 3 Troop 13-16
No. 4 Troop 17-20
Sqn HQ       21-23

B Squadron:

 

No. 1 Troop 24-27

No. 2 Troop 28-31
No. 3 Troop 32-35
No. 4 Troop 36-39
Sqn HQ       40-42

 

C Squadron:

No. 1 Troop 43-46

No. 2 Troop 47-50
No. 3 Troop 51-54
No. 4 Troop 55-58
Sqn HQ       59-61

 

If I'm off in any way I'd welcome any corrections offered. 

[JackG]

That is exactly how I would calculate their particular system in use. 

 

Problem is, it does not match the information provided with the illustrated firefly, stating A squadron 3 troop were assigned call numbers 9-12.  

One other thing I recall seeing is a Sherman numbered 66 from the same 33rd Brigade, but from 144th RAC - so maybe the Regimental HQ vehicles were numbered last?  That will correct the sequence at the start, but shifting those four vehicles to the bottom only uses up 62,62,63 and 64.

 

I think I'd better post a question over at ww2talk for the full layout.

 

regards,

Jack

[Brasso27]

Good idea. I wouldn't be too concerned if the numbering system differed in different units. As I understand it the official vehicle marking system stopped at the level of the squadron. Sub-squadron markings were unofficial and so at the whim of the individual unit. The system of large lettering adopted by the NHY was unusual. Most units that bothered with sub-squadron markings, (and not all did), contented themselves with adding small numerals inside or beside the official squadron tac sign, the Bovington Firefly being a good example. 

[JackG]

More info from another forum:  http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/991767632

 

A Squadron used Russian City names letter O starts for 1 trp, B starts for 2 trp, V for 3trp, K for 4 troop, and a mix for HQ. Their numbers ran 1-19, 1-16 for the troops and 17-19 for the HQ.

B squ used US State (and one city- New Orleans) names in no particular naming scheme. Numbers: 22-24 HQ, 25-40 troops.

C squ used Northamptonshire place names. I trp C starts, 2 trp S starts, 3 trp H starts, 4 trp L, HQ B starts. Numbers: 43-58 troops, 59-61 HQ

 

-----------------------

 

So it appears  A squadron does start at number 1, but the 'formula' also omits a couple numbers from sequence in between each squadron.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Centaur95]

Every regiment that used the turret numbering system seems to have adopted a different sequence. Some started the numbers with the RHQ tanks (lowest numbers) and then moved on to A Sqn, B Sqn etc. That pattern is reflected in the Sqns with SHQ tanks having the lowest numbers in the Sqn. Others started with A Sqn and left the RHQ tanks until the end of the sequence (highest numbers) - again, the same would be true with the sqns.

 

This could vary within each Brigade, with different Regts using different patterns.

I believe that 13/18 Hussars for example started their numbering at 10 ('Balaclava', Lt Col Harrup's personal vehicle) - the other two RHQ vehicles being 11 and 12. Then the numbers moved onto 1 Troop in A Sqn and so on.

 

However, there is photographic evidence that East Riding Yeo from the same Brigade started their numbering at '1' for the first tank in 1 Troop, A Sqn - One of their Fireflies was numbered 6 ('Spitfire') which reflects their Fireflies being numbered as the second tank in each Troop (13/18 Hussars numbered their Fireflies as the fourth tank in each Troop).

 

You also need to know which Troop structure was in use. During the Normandy campaign in particular, some regts were still operating on the basis of 5 Troops, each of three tanks, whilst others had already graduated to the 4 Troop/Four tanks format. East Riding Yeo had fully adopted the four troop system whilst 13/18 Hussars had a hybrid system for much of June and July 1944  with A and B Sqns using the old five troop format and C Sqn using the new system). The Troop format changed the number of tanks in each Sqn and that would impact on the wider numbering sequence.

 

 

Cheers,

Centaur

Edited June 21, 2017 by Centaur95