Interesting Image - Recovered Shermans after El Alamein

[MikeR]

Hi everyone,

 

I found this image whilst having a browse for pictures of Shermans around the time of El Alamein: LINK.

 

The nearest vehicle is a Sherman II and has WD number T144898, a "C" Squadron marking and the name "Ebrington" on it's side. Ebrington's in Gloucestershire, but as the name begins with an "E" I thought perhaps 5 RTR? Finish appears to be one colour as I can't see any evidence of camouflage, but the vehicle's that worn it's difficult to say.

 

Anyone any thoughts?

 

Mike.

Edited June 3, 2017 by MikeR

[JackG]

Firstly, that is a new find, as I can't locate any reference to the name or it's WD number at MissingLynx nor WW2talk forums.

 

The name Ebrington is found in the database here, though it is of another Sherman based in Italy 1944, belonging to the Warwickshire Yeomanry.

http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/tables/Vehicle_Names_V3.pdf

 

 

Backtracking that unit to the desert campaign, they were part of 9th Armoured Brigade, and were supporting the 6th NZ Brigade during El Alamein.

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/warwickshire-yeomanry-in-north-africa.38895/

 

So perhaps?

 

regards,

Jack

Edited June 3, 2017 by JackG

[MikeR]

I think you may have it, Jack.

 

Having the tank's name and squadron sign painted on the hull does appear to be a characteristic of the Warwickshire Yeomanry. Certainly "Colorado" and "Maryland" have that arrangement. I have Dennis Oliver and Mike Starmer's "The New Breed" and the entry for the Warwickshire's does state that B. T. White thought that "B" Squadron had the US themed names (Colorado and Maryland fit this pattern) whilst "C" Squadron had Warwickshire themed ones. Ebrington also fits in with that pattern although the village itself is in Gloucestershire whilst Ebrington Hill is in the correct county.

 

If fading and dust is taken into account then both the name and squadron sign appear to be the same colour (most likely blue) whilst the WD number seems very slightly darker in tone - probably black.

 

I might sign up with Missing Lynx and see what the bods over there make of it.

 

Mike.

[MikeR]

I've doing some more digging and turned up this website: Frank Wallbank's war

 

Some very interesting photos and one of the pages details the website owners father's experiences at El Alamein: LINK. There's two good images of a Sherman belonging to 2 Troop, B Squadron, 3rd King's Own Hussars though the second last number of the serial is a bit worn, could be T144976. There's also a photo of a C Squadron (3 Troop?) Sherman as well though the WD number isn't visible.

 

Mike.

[JackG]

Another good find, and I've also that book.   The entry on page 25 about tank type distribution certainly ties in well with the original photo you had linked -  C squadron was composed of a mixture of Shermans and Grants.

 

regards,

Jack

[MikeR]

5 hours ago, MikeR said:

I might sign up with Missing Lynx and see what the bods over there make of it.

 

Looks like I'll have to scrub that idea - it's not letting me create an account.

 

If any BMer's who have an account with the Missing Lynx forum wish to cross post what I've found I have no objections.

 

Mike.

[JackG]

I do have an account over at Missinglynx, so will proceed to post the photo in their Allied section.

 

regards,

Jack

[MikeR]

Thanks, Jack!

 

Mike.

[Kingsman]

Ebrington village is right on the Glos-Warks border these days.  But in 1931 there were some major boundary changes in that area with some 26 parishes being traded between Glos, Warks and Worcs.  Until then Warks had some parishes completely surrounded and cut off within Glos (exclaves).  But I can't work out from the various maps online, which only show coloured areas and boundaries, whether Ebrington changed hands.  Nearby places certainly did.  So it is possible that Ebrington might once have been in Warks.

[MikeR]

On 04/06/2017 at 7:24 PM, JackG said:

I do have an account over at Missinglynx, so will proceed to post the photo in their Allied section.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Three days and no replies. If someone was going to comment, they would have done so by now. That's a pity but I have noticed that traffic on ML can be a bit sparse at times. Worth a shot though!

 

On 05/06/2017 at 0:13 AM, Das Abteilung said:

Ebrington village is right on the Glos-Warks border these days.  But in 1931 there were some major boundary changes in that area with some 26 parishes being traded between Glos, Warks and Worcs.  Until then Warks had some parishes completely surrounded and cut off within Glos (exclaves).  But I can't work out from the various maps online, which only show coloured areas and boundaries, whether Ebrington changed hands.  Nearby places certainly did.  So it is possible that Ebrington might once have been in Warks.

 

I had a similar thought myself. Another possibility would be the traditional recruitment area for the Warwickshire Yeomanry or a combination of both.

 

Mike.

[JackG]

About Missing-lynx - unfortunately the way the forum is set up we can't see how many hits the thread has.  I'm thinking the members have no other information out there, and that our conclusion is correct.

 

----------------------------

 

There is a contact information for a Museum, maybe someone there has some answers

Warwickshire Yeomanry Museum

http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/museums/0000000143-Warwickshire-Yeomanry-Museum.htm

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by JackG

[Kingsman]

I actually contacted the WKY Museum archivist this morning, and had an answer almost by return.  I'm going to be in Warwick next week and was hoping to visit the museum but it's only open weekends.

 

Yes, Ebrington was a WKY C Squadron vehicle at El Alamein.  It is listed on the regimental Signal Diagram for the time, held in the Museum.  Copies of that are apparently available to purchase from the Museum.  Contrary to my postulation above, Ebrington village was never in Warwickshire - although Ebrington Hill was and is.

 

The Shermans supplied to the regiment were apparently taken from the US 1st Cavalry Div after the new consignment destined for them was sunk en route.  In honour of this, some vehicles sported US names: Maryland was one.  Other known C squadron names, presumably therefore also Shermans, included Ettingen, Hidcote, Spring Hill and Ox Hill.

 

There was a book published about the Regiment in 1971.  "Yeoman Yeoman - the Warwickshire Yeomanry 1920-1956", by Paul Baker.

[Brian]

Looking at the size and numbers of holes in the hull and turret, I wonder if the crew got out.

[Kingsman]

More interestingly, those entry holes  - and I believe they are entry rather than exit - are clearly angled from the rear, indicating that the vehicle was shot from behind.  The turret is also traversed in that direction, possibly still at the angle it was at when hit.

 

If anyone is interested I now have a complete list of all the tank names for the regiment for the Alamein period.

[bull-nut]

What a great image. Aside from the Shermans, of at least two variants (Looks like 'B' sqn M4 and 'C' sqn M4A1?), I can make out Valentine, Crusader, Stuart, Grant and PzKpfW IIIs.

Ebrington, and the fourth vehicle back, a welded hull M4 by the looks of things, appear to be both early Direct vision hulls, and they all appear to be carrying Crusader style stowage bins on the turret rear.

 

Most of the shell strikes on Ebrington seem to be ricochets, it looks to me as if the hull was penetrated twice, close together, into the engine bay, but the penetration that worries me is the one on the front hull side, just above the O in Ebrington. That strike looks awfully close to the hull ammo rack

[Kingsman]

I saw some front views of some WKY Shermans at Alamein time in a photo scrapbook held in the museum.  Those were all DV's and as I recall were all A1s.

 

The welded hull vehicle could be from another unit, and could equally be an M4 or an M4A2.  A2s were present in N Africa and production of M4, A1 and A2 all started within a month of each other.  M4A1 and A2 were initially more common than M4 through 1942 until more M4 production came on stream.  It is likely that the vehicles taken from the US Army were mostly, if not all, A1's. Having said this, US units in Tunisia did have both M4 and M4A1 - including some PSC-built with rivetted lower hulls. With only USMC taking M4A2 it seems likely that UK would have received M4A2 in preference to M4.  Indeed we ended up taking nearly twice as many A2 as M4 + M4A1 combined.

 

On the DV front, Baldwin continued building DV M4s long after everyone else and all Baldwin M4 production was DV right through until Jan '44 whereas everyone else had pretty much changed over by March '43.  Applique plates were factory fitted or added at Tank Depots.  But Baldwin only built 845 out of 7,748 M4s so they weren't exactly common.  DV vehicles of all types were put through the factory rework programme and re-issued at least as late as Sept 44.  There are records of Fisher-reworked FMW-built DV M4A2s being shipped to the UK in that month. Saumur has one of these hulls.