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Backdating Revell's 1/72 Pz IIIL to J


Robby

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Hi all,

 

Looking for some opinions as to how much work it would be to backdate Revell's Panzer IIIL to a IIIJ. I know that the 'L' introduced the longer-barreled Kwk 39, but other than that, how many changes were there? What I've managed to find on the interweb suggests that it was just a case of a redesignation after changing the gun and fitting spaced armour.

 

Thanks,

 

Robby

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1 hour ago, JackG said:

The engine deck layout looks to be completely different as well, and you would have to add vision ports on the forward ends of the turret sides.

 

See here for line drawings of the two marks:

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/3/t/92523.aspx

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

   

Hi Jack, thanks for the info! Really useful line drawings.

 

I think that unfortunately it's beyond my abilities to complete this conversion...

 

Best regards,

Robby

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  • 3 weeks later...

Robby,

 

Head over to Henk of Holland's website and look in the Dragon kit listings.  Find Dragon's Pz.III Ausf.J  and the Ausf.L kits and compare the sprues and instructions.  From memory, you really should not have too much much difficulty doing this, they look to be very similar externally, save for needing to add the vision ports that Jack has mentioned.  I am no Panzer III guru and admit that I am placing a lot of faith in Dragon's work as well as the numerous kit reviews that I came across on Henk's website.  I do not recall anyone mentioning that the Ausf.J rear deck was any different from the Ausf.L's (unless maybe a really early J???).

 

Quite honestly, I think that if Dragon goofed on their Panzer III kits (either scale), there'd be quite the hubbub about it..  From the reviews that I have read, Dragon's 1/72 Panzer IIIs have all received quite positive remarks.  The only thing that really comes to mind is that they molded the tow cable onto the rear deck (where Revell left it separate) and the other big beef was that they molded the engine covers on but but there is no space around them between the cover and the deck.  Yet, they did it "right" (if you will) with their StuG III kit, as did Revell:

 

10.jpg

 

Also, another good site for kit reference is Hobby Search.  Do a search for what you are looking for and do not limit yourself to scale, include 1/35.  Many of the kits listed there include pictures of the parts, instructions and decals.  I save the ones I am interested in and can use the pictures of the kit parts and instructions as a guide for what I am working on in 1/72.  I've saved countless 1/35 Dragon kit files to use as a guide for projects in 72nd scale. 

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You might also find the following reviews of interest:

  1. Dragon Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N w/side skirt armour (don't let the Ausf.N part turn you away)
  2. Amorama Dragon Panzer III Ausf.J review (should help you figure out what you may need for your project)

Also at the bottom of the review in my previous post, there is a chart comparing what comes with each Dragon Panzer III kits.

 

Even though you do not get the turret vision ports for a J, I do prefer kit #7407 was the best Dragon Panzer III kit overall as it gave you most everything that you needed to do any other variant (save for suitable decals) plus you get a later style cupola and the side skirt / turret armour which, IMHO, is quite nicely done.

 

Don't let those turret vision ports stop you Robby, they are really basically just very small rectangular pieces with a slit, something that I bet you could trim out from a small piece of plastic card.

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To be fair though, you can't compare just any Ausf. N to the J version.  The N series were built from the hulls of J(3), L(447), and M(213).  So yes, a few were exactly the same concerning the engine deck area.   Dragon did the easy thing and just re-popped their J hull sprues and added the necessary N gun and turret.

 

regards,

Jack

 

to edit:  some further research, apparently later versions of the J did have changes done to the arrangement of it's engine deck, becoming identical to that of the L.  Also looking at the Revell kit,  the hull has the required escape hatch which all J's had - so a bonus there.  So really Just need to make three visor covers for the turret: both sides plus an additional one to the starboard side of the main gun.

 

 

 

 

Edited by JackG
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1 hour ago, JackG said:

to edit:  some further research, apparently later versions of the J did have changes done to the arrangement of it's engine deck, becoming identical to that of the L.  Also looking at the Revell kit,  the hull has the required escape hatch which all J's had - so a bonus there.  So really Just need to make three visor covers for the turret: both sides plus an additional one to the starboard side of the main gun.

As I was writing my reply, I was thinking that perhaps the early J's had the different engine deck layout and you have confirmed as much.  Thank you.

 

If Robby is using his Revell kit for this and wants the early engine deck layout, a good choice to start with would be Attack's Su-76i kit (there might be other kits from Attack that are suitable, but it's the one that I have on hand).  The moldings are heavily based off the Revell kit, so the upper hull would be a straight swap with the Revell kit's.  From other pictures that I came across of the Su-76i, you could use the Revell kit upper hull for that, so win-win. 

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Thank you all so much for the comments, knowledge and help! I really appreciate it. I have also done some digging and came across the following website that focuses on interiors but has some good archive material:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20001204220400/http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors/pz3/pz3a.html

 

First photo - late model J's ready for shipping with the L/60 gun, three vision ports and no appliqué armour. I think that in the first instance I will try to add the three visor covers on the turret and make a late J in DAK markings, similar to those in the photos (the paint looks relatively light, although I don't want to start a discussion about identifying colour in old b/w photos!!). Time to start improving my scratchbuilding skills, methinks...

 

Once more, thanks for the help and the discussion!

 

/Robby

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Late J models intended for Africa were painted RAL 8020, Sandgelb, at the factory. The camouflage pattern of RAL 7027, Sandgrau, was added after the crews took possession. RAL 7028, Dark Yellow, was not introduced for nearly another year. 

 

As far as the engine deck layout, the actual hatch openings were almost identical. The location of the hinges and the ventilator covers was the main difference. Too confuse things even further, late J's and early L's were nearly identical as well. Very early L's had turret viewports as they used up the last of the turrets before switching over.

 

 

 

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Hi G, that's some good information, thanks - now I know that I can either paint the tank allover 8020 as if it is fresh from the factory or battered up with some 7027 camouflage. Maybe the former in a diorama with a Me 323 Gigant delivery 'plane...? :pilot:

 

Now I just have to find a 8020 that I like... 

 

/Robby

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Gigant - sounds like a Tunisian setting, which begs the question why wanting to  backdate, as there certainly were plenty IIIL's by that stage.

 

Anyhow, RAL 8020 - some hobby paint comparisons here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1462689665

 

Good info from AgentG, and though not intended to change one's mind about color choice, it should be known that when the second set of tropen colours were introduced in March 1942 (8020 and 7027), the directive did state that older stocks were to be used up first.  There were something in the order of seven factories producing panzer III"s, and I couldn't begin to guess at what stage they were at with their paint supplies.

 

regards,

Jack

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AND, to confuse the issue even more..........

 

Some support vehicles, as well as two Panzer III N's (that we know of) arrived in Tunis in Dark Yellow. SdKfz 251's from the 10th Panzer Regiment were yellow. 

 

Now for the confusing part. A lot of vehicles, tanks included, were give a camo pattern of RAL 7008 over the 8020 or 7028. Tunisia, being more temperate that Libya, had more greenery about.  

 

Remember sPzAbt 501 and 504, the Tiger tank battalions, had Tigers and Panzer IIIs in RAL 8000 with RAL 7008 camo.  Think Bovington Tiger.

 

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RAL 8020/7027 fresh from the paint booth. Both are Tamiya mixes.

 

DSCF6248_zpsikxaki9v.jpg

 

RAL 8020/7027 before and after weathering. MMP acrylic.

 

DSCF6120_zpsukvmywcq.jpg

 

DSCF6210_zps8483l364.jpg

 

RAL 8000/7008 fresh from the booth. Tamiya mixes.

 

DSCF6150_zpshwkiossp.jpg

 

After weathering.

 

DSCF6158_zpsf1xx7tva.jpg

 

Tiger 142, MMP RAL 8000/7008

 

DSCF6070_zpsqqocpouf.jpg

 

G

 

 

 

 

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AgentG, that is interesting about the dark yellow - was this recent findings?   Not surprised about the dark yellow vehicles themselves, but that they made their way to Africa - is there a date attached to those examples?

 

I think it safe to say dark yellow was not present on neither the J nor L models as their production ceased in 1942, while the N continued to be produced well after the African campaign was over.   Dark Yellow became official sometime in February 1943.   The initial shade used was readily available before that date,  as it already was in existence for farming equipment.

 

regards,

Jack

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First of all, beautiful Pz III and Tiger AgentG, not only are they masterfully built and weathered but they also show off to good effect the issue surrounding the two-tone camouflage blending to appear to be one colour :worthy:

 

Could the dark yellow-painted vehicles have been re-directed examples that were originally going to the Eastern Front? Maybe a factory that didn't have any DAK-appropriate base colour and used dark yellow instead? Pure speculation, I know... :hmmm:

 

I suppose the old adage of 'check your references' is the best course of action!

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JackG, 

Perusing photos of the period just after Kasserine (February 1943) reveals several SdKfz 251's of the 10th Pz Div. that appear to be dark yellow. These also have the RAL 7008 camo patterns. There is a series of photos showing the unloading of two brand new Pz III N's in Tunis In early February 1943. Both are most certainly another color other than RAL 8020. Dark yellow appears briefly right at the very end of the campaign February to April 1943. The 251 is in a series of photos commonly attributed to Kasserine. This was in fact after Kasserine and about 6 miles from the pass. Photos from the web, for discussion only. 

 

Related image

 

Harbor at Tunis. Pz IIIN's that went to the 15th Pz Div. 

Original German caption:  Afrika Korps - Panzer III werden in Afrika vom Schiff entladen

 

Robby,

First, Thank You!

I think the newly applied dark yellow painted vehicles were sent to Africa on a priority basis. Curiously you then find that after the capitulation, you see many tropen painted vehicles in Russia. Tropen colors were also used for vehicles in Italy as well as Africa. It was very easy to get newly built armor to Italy's staging/training grounds. Not a stretch to believe dark yellow painted vehicles arrived in North Africa at the bitter end of the campaign.  1 Panzer Division had brand new PzIV's painted dark yellow when the moved from Greece to Italy right after the fall in North Africa. If you can send dark yellow painted vehicles to Greece during that time period, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think they were in Africa as well.

 

Lot's of conjecture, speculation and down right guess work, but it makes sense in context.  

 

G

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Agreed, all that has been stated is possible, as wartime setting makes rarely for absolutes concerning colour paint directives. 

 

The colour dock photo is interesting, but I wouldn't want to make a definite guess as to the paint colour.  I've Chory's book that includes hand painted (not printed) chip matches to Heer samples - and none of them appear like the yellow seen in the above photo.  In fact, all the tropen colours are dark as is the Dunkelgelb (dark yellow).

 

Then there was a modern study done of RAL 8000 photographed in different lighting conditions:

trex_RAL8000.jpg

 

trex_RAL8000_1.jpg

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1326015112

 

regards,

Jack

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've also looked around the interweb at various walkarounds and I can see that colour changes on the same vehicle under the same lighting more often than I change a certain undergarment (socks).

 

I've experimented with some spray-cans and have decided on Flames of War DAK Sand for, er, DAK Sand, and Citadel's Zandri Dust for my dark yellow, the later has the advantage of being matched 100% (give or take) to the Citadel paint pot. Haven't quite worked out the camouflage colours yet, but I'll keep going; I want to support my LHS as much as I can rather than sending all my custom online.

 

Badger, I thought about the UM kit but I really don't think that my skills are up to it - yet!

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Thanks - I've used the DAK Sand on a LeFH 16 (ACE), it appears a bit lighter than what it is in real life. The wash is Charadon granite (citadel) with pencil chips. It's finished in my world, we have to take the small victories in stash reduction where we can get them!

 

I also use The Army Painter's Uniform Grey for panzer dunkelgrau. Again, it's matched to a pot of paint. It quite light so it needs a wash with black paint, but I think that it works for the most part.

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