Navy-ating Bucc's fizz - On the deck at last

[perdu]

One thing that really stands out for me, ( I HAVE lived in a slum when I was a kid) is how little room Blackburn's left for people in there

The back seater didn't even have space in which to wriggle his legs

 

With my knee troubles I have become extremely sensitive to leg room issues

 

😕

Edited August 8, 2017 by perdu

[Hamden]

 

Coming together nicely. Stunning work throughout!

 

  Roger

[Fritag]

7 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

He would, I believe, agree heartily with the phrase "ergonomic slum".

 

Wouldn't have fancied the IMC instrument scan much........IMC became soooo much easier with a HUD.  Flying an attitude was something that poor bu**ers lacking an inertial platform and HUD had to do.  Want to fly level?  Stick the flight path bug on the horizon lines and maintain.  Want a 3 degree descent?  drop the flight path bug 3 degrees below the horizon and maintain.  No need for a scan pattern at all really.  Drift corrected true track, Airspeed/groundspeed/Mach no, altitude, VSI and required track/speed for next turning point all there displayed heads up within a few square inches.  Only thing to keep us awake was not having an autopilot.

 

 

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I know what you mean, but I think you just adapted your scan to whichever aircraft you flew and got used to it.  When I converted from Sea King to Lynx I found the IF scan horrible for a few trips, but then forgot all about it as I got used to it.  And then had the same issue in reverse when I did my Sea King refresher 4 years later!  The "ordinary" scan was OK, but (from memory) the standby AI was in a weird place which made the scan feel clunky when your IRI "failed" the main instrument (as the b*stards always seemed to do when they "thought you weren't having to work hard enough").

 

I'd have thought that low level over the sea at 450+ kts would make my instrument scam so fast it would all be a blur.  Talk about "pucker factor"...

[71chally]

Don't forget that the Buccaneer 'office' was positively palatial compared to the Sea Vixen, the observers position even had daylight and medium grey decor as standard!  And on a more serious note, a fighting chance of getting out of a nasty situation.

British aircraft companies never did want to spoil aircrew too much.

 

Lovely progress on your S.1, another Perdu beaudy!

[Fritag]

56 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I'd have thought that low level over the sea at 450+ kts would make my instrument scam so fast it would all be a blur.  Talk about "pucker factor"...

You'll have spent more time and at lower levels over the sea than me Crisp.  But I did spend a fair amount of time at 450+kts low over the North Sea avoiding Lightnings, F4's and F3's and trying to attack HM ships various; and the HUD came into it's own again.  That and a RADALT low height warner...

 

It were easy & safe enough in good visibility (even a bit boring) - especially if the wind was wipping up the waves a bit.

 

But often the viz was poor and the horizon disappeared.  It then got very interesting dodgy when manoeuvring hard at high bank angles with little or no horizon, little to see in the peripheral vision and only 250ft of safety between thee and the ogg splosh.  Bit like trying to do nearly max rate turns on instruments and not being able to lose 250ft at any point in the turn.   'Course you were supposed to pull out and go home when the conditions got like that.  But.  Well.  Young and immortal.

 

At least with a HUD you could just glance back to your front and pretty instantly reorientate, check your bank angle, height and whether you were climbing or more importantly decsending - and then get your attention back over your shoulder.  In a Bucc I guess you'd have to go head down in the cockpit to do that - which don't seem like a very desirable thing to do at a time like that.  Definitely need to know your way around your instrument scan.....

 

I 'spose the observer/Nav would have been quite keen to keep an eye on the proximity of the off splosh too mind you - that'd help 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Fritag

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

2 hours ago, Fritag said:

But often the viz was poor and the horizon disappeared. 

 

I 'spose the observer/Nav would have been quite keen to keep an eye on the proximity of the off splosh too mind you - that'd help.

Even now, 20 years after I last flew, on grey days like that I think "thank God I'm not flying today"; those murky winter days when it impossible to tell the difference between grey sea and grey sky.  That might sound like exaggeration to some of you, but on many occasions when doing surface search in a Lynx I have been momentarily surprised when a ship came into view occupying a part of the grey that I was convinced was sky.  Then you realised - even young & immortal - that all those instructors pounding "TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS, NOT THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS!" into your brain might have had a point.

 

Having a second person in there with you helped to reduce the workload, certainly - but in my experience those hyper-busy moments when you're most likely to fly into the oggin are the exact same ones when the Looker would be fully head-down, eyes welded to the radar.  

 

A second pilot definitely helped, in a Sea King.  But then in a Sea King you were routinely flying down to a 40' hover on instruments, which is precisely why you had a second pilot; the Baggers fly single pilot all the time, but they were high up.  4 hours at 200' & below on your own at night or in poor vis would have been bloody dangerous; SOP was for the pilots to swap control every 30 minutes, and that was tiring enough on busy sorties.

 

Even with all that, I lost a course-mate who flew into the sea.  The most dangerous bit of the lot was launching from a ship on a really black night with no stars; you had to lift from a (relatively) brightly lit deck, fly eyes-out to move clear of it, and then go instantly onto instruments (with the ASI not even registering yet on low-wind nights); a recipe for disorientation.  Andy launched from RFA Resource, which had a very high flight deck - itself disorientating - and involved flying through the "burble" of the funnel gases just as you transitioned away.  He was distracted for a moment by a minor malfunction (we know this because his P2 was thrown clear through the windscreen and survived), his instrument scan faltered, and that was that.  There but for the grace of God...

 

That was why we used to work constantly at it, including re-qualifying for night ops each time you went back to sea.  (Trying to do it in a Harrier Does. Not. Bear. Thinking. About!).

 

[Sorry, Bill; thread hijack]

[perdu]

Not a hijack all relevant content, note the thread title Navy-ating

 

Buccaneers come in on the second phrase/phase 

 

I think I've pointed out to all of you real life real time personifiers of 'The Dream' that I  (and our other friends riding along) love the stuff you, Steve and the lamented Ladyator who drifted, etcetera tell us about

 

As Willy Shakespeare would have said "The Dit's the thing"

[CedB]

I second what bill said about stories on here - always interesting to read. Thanks for sharing chaps.

 

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

... a ship came into view occupying a part of the grey that I was convinced was sky

So that's why they paint 'em grey... camouflage! Sneaky blighters... Never occurred to me before - they always stand out in port!

[giemme]

3 hours ago, CedB said:

I second what bill said about stories on here - always interesting to read. Thanks for sharing chaps.

Thirded - thanks Ced for expressing my thoughts too

 

Ciao

[TonyTiger66]

2 hours ago, giemme said:

Thirded - thanks Ced for expressing my thoughts too

 

Ciao

Yup  on the dits. Really evocative and I  feel very fortunate to be able to read/hear them like this.

 

Many thanks for sharing these chaps 

 

TonyT

[The Yorkshireman]

Fantastic re read of this, so much genuine knowledge of the subject....

 

Jon 

[perdu]

I have been a little tardy updating the Bucc mostly because I am a bit put off by the stage I'm at just now

 

I'm doing the cockpit and seats and straps are one of my blleaaaarghhy subjects

 

Anyway here is where the cockpit is now, please squint because I am a crappulous photographer too, who has got the autofocus wrong

 

I mean, who the heck gets autofocus wrong?

 

Me 

 

This shows quite well the small amount of space they get inside there I think

 

Or I made the seats too big (which I think is less likely than Matchbox giving the crew too little room inside the canopy) Something doesn't quite add up in there once you add instrumentation

 

I'm quite happy with the consoles and panels though, front IP is next to go in after the seats are home and dry

 

Starboard consoles here

 

There is no room to put the seat in the front with the fuselage closed up so it has to be next thing in after I finish strapping the seats and glueing them in

In this view you can see the pair of service connectors, black for comms and green for oxygen in the front seat area

 

I am having trouble finding the layouts for the back seater's service connectors, I know this is before the single attachment for them came in...

 

I have a decent photo of the green hose and black cable for the front seater, but the back seater might as well just whistle to gain attention from the long list of walkarounds and in service shots

 

didn't seem to happen 

 

I have been reworking the nose cone and radome a bit too

A smidgeon of milliput to 'point up' the pointy bit and lots of joins to whisk away

 

While I have been 'doing the matchbox' I have been checking it against my other S2 kit, the Russki squeezing of the Venerable Frog one

 

I have called it a squeezing because the things I paid a quid for were not well moulded at all, the flash squeezed out as much as the pieces of Froglet design

 

However I was pleasantly surprised to see that both manufacturers agree on many things about the shape

 

Try this for size and shape

 

The Frog door sits differently against the fuselage, which shows but the overall shapes are very reasonably close to each other

 

Colour me happy with this, it is all very work-with-able

 

I have had other less pressing irons in my fire too

 

Look what I have got here then

 

An object lesson in cutting circles

 

The wheel well on the Frog Gannet isnt any more than a raised circle and rectangle with a ghost slot to pop the leg and door moulding into which you pop out if its to be sat on its legs

Using my C-101 Compass cutter and a small pencil compass to find a centre I have begun opening it out ready for internal detailing

 

The Airwaves gannet u/c set if only for reference, their innards for the well bears bigger-all similarity to the real innards which I am hoping to cajole James into getting me a few pictures some time in the future when I get into it properly

I have a pair of these to do and the Pavla interior as well as the Airwaves cockpit interior

 

I was going to use one of each but seeing the resin one has put my interest in the Airwaves one on the back burner

 

Do you remember me whinging about the hard plastic on the Bucc?

 

This is Novo industrial strength Russian plastic, they must have got the recipe from Matchbox

 

It is nearly as tough as the blue Bucc stuff

 

Frog do not give you an interior, you may recall (if you are old enough) they simply mould the crews heads on top of a solid cockpit

 

Which has to be hacked off

 

I made the mistake of using my little Expo drill with its dental type rotary chopper-outer  

Ouch, still there is always PPP 

 

 

That Pavla stuff fills the hacked out hole nicely, even if it was designed to go in somebody called Trumpeter's Gannet model

 

 

I found as have many other owners that using it with the cutter blade forwards causes/allows the blade to flex and wander which isn't a lot of good for the circle you fancy cutting out

I went a tad small for the circle so I could demonstrate that happening (yes I did, honest... would I lie already?) you can see the circle has wandered round in its radius making the line bigger than it should be

The light single circle in the middle was a tracer ring I did to check both centre and diameter needed, you can see the holes at each corner of the main gear door which I will open out when I actually get down with the Faireys

 

Lots of research to do yet for this one/pair, one of which will be finished as a COD machine

 

And back to the marking out and cutting circles task, if you want a true cut with one of these cutters rotate it anticlockwise which makes th back of the cutter act as a cutting tool instead of as a knife

 

It simply cuts out a vee shaped slot and because the cut is equal across the circle it doesn't creep out of line

 

Here it is doing that inside the wing

 

By now you will have realised I am rescuing another abandoned project from back a while, these wing halves had been glued together so I have had to open the section below the wing where the well will reside later

 

The very blunt 5B pencil is used to mark on the  very shiny Novo plastic, my normal 2H or 4Hs just slid off leaving almost no marks

 

frustrating or wot...

Edited August 12, 2017 by perdu

[CedB]

Very nice internals Bill, on both - are you doing a WiP on the Gannet? Can't find it and it looks interesting...

Good tip on the cutter - anti-clockwise, got it 

[perdu]

The bulk of the Gannetary will be later, I just had time and inclination to fettle with it

 

I am still at the bottom of the research curve on it at the mo'

 

As James 71c seems to have access at times to the bird I will be pestering him for stuff I would like

 

Legs (who doesn't like a bird's legs huh?) wells and the colours of the interiors, whilst the AEWs seem to have had Light Admiralty Grey I think the AS versions got mostly black, 50s interior decor

 

 

[hendie]

Nice update Bill - you are having more luck putting holes in the right place than I am at the moment !

[71chally]

Wow a Gannet as well!  I will assist in any way I can, I have reference shots of most Gannety type tings, but it's AEWs that I have regular access to, most of it is similar enough mind.

Actually Frog got it right with this one, the wing undersides were solid, the undercarriage litrally disappeared as it folded up!

 

Undercarriage wells, legs and inner doors were main airframe colour on all variants, ie the AS and AEWs in Sky, and the CODs in RAF Blue Grey.

I've never seen grey gear legs (apart from a restored example, which might have  a base coat on), even brand new in the crate they were Sky.

 

Cockpit interiors were black, simples, but various shades of dark grey probably represent the various panels and fittings better.  AEWs only had light aircraft green interior.

Edited August 13, 2017 by 71chally

[TheBaron]

That sudden transition from Bucc to Gannet left me quite giddy Bill!

 

A most pleasant start to a Sunday catching up on cockpit-fettle of the former and heiroglyph-scratching of the latter.

 

 

[perdu]

Thank you James, didn't Frog always get it right. 😊

 

I have a nice picture of the wheel bay but not anything decent of the legs part of the bay

 

I'm sure from checking the wheel section that Airwaves isn't representative of the 'proper hole' roof

 

Not sure whether to FAFF about with a new WIP yet

 

But probably will if you all like the idea

 

See Bill beggar up on a Gannet stylee! 

[Hamden]

 

What with Buccs and Gannets you must have a large work space!

Love to see what you do with the Gannet such an over looked type!

 

  Roger

[giemme]

Very nice interiors there, Bill

 

I was at lost for a moment when I saw the other fuselage, then realised it's a totally different beast

Looks very interesting too

 

Ciao

[71chally]

This is from memory at the moment Bill, but there's nothing fancy about the main wheel bays, they aren't walled in to follow the contours and curves of the underwing cutout if that makes sense.  Its essentially a rectangular box formed by the spars, fuselage side, and wing rib inboard of the fold.  There are then various stringers, a cut rib and gussets panels inside the bay. 

This is AEW but gives you and idea,

Fairey Gannet AEW.3 port main undercarriage bay by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

One thing to watch on the AS types, the drag strut for the main gear leg is actually hinged from level with underside of the wing, just outboard of the bay, and has a prominent faired hinge point, this is also why the main gear door has a cutout and a bulge at the leading edge top corner.

 

For clarity it might be better to start a Gannet WIP thread!

Edited August 13, 2017 by 71chally

[Fritag]

13 hours ago, perdu said:

I mean, who the heck gets autofocus wrong?

Well you're off the hook Bill; it's obviously the auto-jobbie, thingy, whotsit - ain't it 

 

13 hours ago, perdu said:

In this view you can see the pair of service connectors, black for comms and green for oxygen in the front seat area

 

In 1/72 - that's just showing off now...................leg restraints?

 

2 hours ago, TheBaron said:

That sudden transition from Bucc to Gannet left me quite giddy Bill!

 

Me too.  Quicker segue than a disoriented tourist on a segway

[perdu]

I have to put on leg restraints don't I

 

You let that genie out of the box

 

The G'net will have her own WIP if I am allowed another whilst cooking up the Bucc but occasional excursions in that direction have already occurred

 

Did noone notice the box of resin being prepared for a casting jobbie back a few days?

 

I used it to test vibro debubbling which worked brilliantly 

 

I won't need to try so hard to develop a cheap vac-degasser now

Edited August 13, 2017 by perdu

[Brandy]

So the Gannett is to have folding wings then?

 

(ducks and runs)

 

Ian