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Some questions on FAA Avengers


85sqn

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Hi folks,

I’m after some good gen on Fleet Air Arm Grumman Avengers. Some of you may know that for the last few year I have been fascinated with the EIF and BPF and in particular the exploits of the corsair squadrons after reading ‘Carrier Pilot.’ It is now the turn of the avenger to be modelled in 1/48 and I have the Hobbyboss kit. I have also managed to secure the observers windows from an Accurate Miniatures kit. I don’t know too much about the FAA avengers in terms of the finer points so please shout out if you have some tips.

At the moment I am looking to do JZ127, an 854 Sqn Avenger/Tarpon MkI built by Grumman (making it a TBF-Ib or TBF-Ic?) which carried some bomb markings beneath the nose and a V-1 kill. I believe the pilot Sub-Lt Davies was able to get his aircraft into position to allow the TAG to destroy the V-1 back on the Channel front. This sqn went on to serve on HMS Illustrious between December 1944 and April 1945.

 

From Fleet Air Arm Aircraft: Deld South Africa 11.43, To RNARY Wingfield tested after erection 5.9.44, to Atheling for Ceylon 8.9.44, 854 Sqn (H), 12.44-4.45; ship pitching, bounced, missed wires, into barrier Illustrious, CAT LQ 1.1.45, (S/L PL Hartley), port wing hit rotating prop Illustrious, CAT LX 9.2.45, S/L DP Davies.

JZ127.jpg

Above is the aircraft I wish to model and below are just some other examples.

4G%20Illustrious.jpg

Avenger-1.jpg

Avenger_crash_on_HMS_Indefatigable_1945.

 

Colour Schemes:

Is it coded ‘4H’ or ‘Q4H’ like the photo above?

Is the H in a different colour to the 4? Maybe sky instead of medium sea grey?

Is the spinner white, sky or silver?

MAP paint in TSS. Hard edged.

The other aircraft in the photo (A) has had its starboard wing roundel overpainted but looks like 4H has small EIF roundels. Are they in a transitional phase in readiness for BPF bars to be applied circa Jan 1945? ‘A’ also has a different spinner colour. Are they therefore two different flight leaders ranged for T/O?

Underwing roundels may be small and further outboard of the ASV aerials, potentially the darker spot in the photo? ‘A’ doesn’t look like it is carrying any.

 

Cockpit colour:

Bronze green or dull dark green from bulkhead to turret with interior green in other crew areas? Grumman grey cowling? I know the photo is b+w but the cockpit doesn’t appear to be particularly dark in tone.

Observers position:

Does it have a fold down seat?  Assuming that the Observer or TAG can go from the rear cockpit to the lower compartment, is it offset?

Is that the radar screen for ASV forward of the observer?

Should there be some radar kit in the lower compartment?

Does it have a second control column stowed?

Bomb load:

Quite clearly shown in many photos are US bombs with squared fins. For a typical load 4x 500Ibs seems to be the norm.

Seatbelts:

Sutton style harness? Lap belt on lower bench?

Dinghy Stowage:

Is that the square beneath the observer’s position?

Undercarriage Legs:

White or Sky? See ‘4G’ below

Small whip aerial:

Present behind turret.

 

Here is a couple of passages from ‘Front Line Avenger Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm’ by R.G. Fletcher:

“The aircraft was a mid-wing monoplane of all-metal, stressed skin construction and had accommodation for three crew members. Behind the pilot’s cockpit, there was a central glasshouse compartment given over to the accommodation of radio and other equipment. Then came the browning 0.5in gun turret and astern of this the lower cabin, occupying the whole of the fuselage behind the bomb bay, entered by a door aft of the starboard wing. Inside there was a folding bench-type seat facing forward opposite the radio and radar sets while below these there was a Perspex panel which, when the bomb bay doors were open, provided a downwards view for the bombardier as used by the USNAS. Above the radio was the access door to the turret and, on the right there was a space to crawl into the central glasshouse. To the rear of the seat, was the ventral gun position equipped with a Browning 0.3in firing aft. The cabin was poorly lit, having only one Perspex blister and a smaller window on each side although some daylight did filter down via the turret. The use of this lower cabin by the observer and TAG proved to be unsatisfactory for the former as visibility was poor and the use of navigational charts and instruments whilst sharing the bench seat with the TAG was not conducive to effective work or amicable relationships.

 

, by transferring equipment from the central glasshouse compartment, it was possible to provide the observer with a position which had excellent visibility and better facilities for his navigational duties. It also left the rear cabin for the exclusive use of the TAG apart from the very occasional passenger. With this change, some squadrons dispensed with the ventral gun.”

 

From this I conclude that some of the kit mentioned in the first paragraph is in the glasshouse eg radar scope seen above in the photo of ‘4H’.

 

I think that's it for the moment!

 

Nick

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2 hours ago, 85sqn said:

 

At the moment I am looking to do JZ127, an 854 Sqn Avenger/Tarpon MkI built by Grumman (making it a TBF-Ib or TBF-Ic?) which carried some bomb markings beneath the nose and a V-1 kill. I believe the pilot Sub-Lt Davies was able to get his aircraft into position to allow the TAG to destroy the V-1 back on the Channel front. This sqn went on to serve on HMS Illustrious between December 1944 and April 1945.

 

From Fleet Air Arm Aircraft: Deld South Africa 11.43, To RNARY Wingfield tested after erection 5.9.44, to Atheling for Ceylon 8.9.44, 854 Sqn (H), 12.44-4.45; ship pitching, bounced, missed wires, into barrier Illustrious, CAT LQ 1.1.45, (S/L PL Hartley), port wing hit rotating prop Illustrious, CAT LX 9.2.45, S/L DP Davies.

 

Colour Schemes:

Is it coded ‘4H’ or ‘Q4H’ like the photo above?

Is the H in a different colour to the 4? Maybe sky instead of medium sea grey?

Is the spinner white, sky or silver?

MAP paint in TSS. Hard edged.

The other aircraft in the photo (A) has had its starboard wing roundel overpainted but looks like 4H has small EIF roundels. Are they in a transitional phase in readiness for BPF bars to be applied circa Jan 1945? ‘A’ also has a different spinner colour. Are they therefore two different flight leaders ranged for T/O?

Underwing roundels may be small and further outboard of the ASV aerials, potentially the darker spot in the photo? ‘A’ doesn’t look like it is carrying any.

 

Cockpit colour:

Bronze green or dull dark green from bulkhead to turret with interior green in other crew areas? Grumman grey cowling? I know the photo is b+w but the cockpit doesn’t appear to be particularly dark in tone.

Observers position:

Does it have a fold down seat?  Assuming that the Observer or TAG can go from the rear cockpit to the lower compartment, is it offset?

Is that the radar screen for ASV forward of the observer?

Should there be some radar kit in the lower compartment?

Does it have a second control column stowed?

Bomb load:

Quite clearly shown in many photos are US bombs with squared fins. For a typical load 4x 500Ibs seems to be the norm.

Seatbelts:

Sutton style harness? Lap belt on lower bench?

Dinghy Stowage:

Is that the square beneath the observer’s position?

Undercarriage Legs:

White or Sky? See ‘4G’ below

Small whip aerial:

Present behind turret.

 

 

Hi Nick,

854 codes were Q4x for Operation Robson (attack on Belawan Deli  20.12.44) and from memory this was their debut with the BIEF after Illustrious' return from her refit in Durban. They remained in this form through Operation Meridian I and II in January 1945, changing to Q/270-Q/385 for Operation Iceberg March-May 1945 with BPF.  The BPF change involving moving the carrier code to the fin and the fleet number to the nose (where the repeat individual code letter is carried in your BIEF photos), carried on a dark panel (black or possibly roundel blue). The previous Q4x code being painted out. 

 

Q4H: JZ127 becomes Q/382 during Iceberg.  I have all pretty much all the 854 Squadron Iceberg Avenger codes (I don't think many of these are in Sturtivant).  There is also film of JZ127 Q/382 landing on:

 

vlcsnap-306350_zps9yfvevn5.png

 

BIEF and BPF aircraft seem to have deployed flight spinner colours, though I haven't managed to unpick much of this. I've not found any written evidence and the photographic record is patchy. Also, when losses mounted during Iceberg, replacements do not seem to have adopted these colours, though maybe they were so adorned after the ships return to Australia.

 

As for bomb load, both US and British bombs were regularly carried. 

 

HTH

 

IG

 

Edited by iang
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Hi Ian thanks for the reply, I thought as much regarding bombs I know the Barracudas were seen with British bombs earlier with the EIF. The Hobbyboss kit comes with US bombs. 

 

A while ago you asked if I could make out the serial of Q-4Y alongside Corsair JT634. I believe the serial says FN861.

 

Cheers

 

Nick

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1 hour ago, 85sqn said:

Hi Ian thanks for the reply, I thought as much regarding bombs I know the Barracudas were seen with British bombs earlier with the EIF. The Hobbyboss kit comes with US bombs. 

 

A while ago you asked if I could make out the serial of Q-4Y alongside Corsair JT634. I believe the serial says FN861.

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

Nick,  since our conversation I've now got a full list of 854 Squadron Q4x codes/serials and Q4Y was FN851, so  I suspect that the 6  in the photo is actually a 5.

IG

Edited by iang
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A couple of points answered so far:

 

Dinghy stowage is marked by the square below the observers position and a close-up even says dinghy stowage in the centre.

 

JZ127 kept its ventral gun shown in Ian's photo above.

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For the purpose of reference here is a useful post by detailiseverything:

 

I add my pennies worth (based on various postings made here and elsewhere) - sorry for the picture distortions. If you click on them, they revert to original size.

FAA AVENGERS (TARPONS until January 1944)

Production details and Exterior/interior colours

Wheel wells, struts and covers were normally the underside colour. The wheel wells on camouflaged TBF/TBMs of the RN were usually either painted to match the undersides Sky or in a few cases bright yellowy-green Zinc Chromate. 

US colours used for TSS

Grumman used MAP colours, Eastern used ANA substitutes.

Grumman--Dark Slate Grey (FS 34096), Extra Dark Sea Grey (FS 36118), Sky (FS 34583).

Grumman used equivalent paint shades, ie colours that matched the official British colours and not substitutes ie colours that, while not matching British colours, were officially approved as being acceptable alternatives. The paint used by Grumman throughout the war on camouflaged British aircraft may not have been made in Britain but it was indistinguishable from paint that was.

Eastern-- Olive Drab ANA 613 (FS 34130), Sea Grey ANA 603 (FS 36173), Sky (FS 34504).

Sea Grey ANA 603 was British Extra Dark Sea Grey so wasn't a substitute as such.

Sky Type S Gray ANA 610 was meant to be equivalent to British TSS Sky as well but there was apparently a difference.

There was no ANA equivalent for Sky simply because at the time of the ANA consolidation it was not required by any service as a paint colour. 'Sky Type S Gray' (or Grey) was terminology used by Dupont for its Sky equivalent paint 71-021 and is nowhere near FS 36373 in appearance by any measure. British requirements for Sky under surfaces were commonly communicated and specified as 'Duck Egg Blue' rather than as any form of grey. The ANA 610 standard for Sky is close to FS 24424 and was retained until 1949 when it was superseded by FS 34424.

Black appears to have been painted over the nose and down the side, sometimes right down the side, back to the leading edge of the wing on some Temperate Sea Scheme /Anti Submarine camouflaged squadrons on North Atlantic/Norway operations (see following photos, p320, 853 NAS Air Britain Publications - Sqdns of the FAA and photo of JZ150 below). Perhaps for night strikes?

0303716.jpg

7881266078_71b9c16dc0_b.jpg

Tarpon (Avenger) I: Grumman built

401 TBF-1B (export version of TBF-1) and TBF-1C serialled FN750 to FN949, JZ100 to JZ300Not clear when switch to TBF-1C occurred. Not until at least after FN908 

QuietlyAwaitingRecovery06-Avenger.jpg

TBF-1 FN767

TypeB_2.jpg

TBF – 1 FN908

Avenger_711_Squadron_RN_in_flight.jpg

TBF-1C JZ150

Since Grumman had dealt with the Fleet Air Arm prior to the advent of Lend-Lease for the sales of early Martlet fighters, Grumman-built Avengers used Dupont paints mixed to Fleet Air Arm approved TSS camouflage colours (Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Sky) with a “hard edge” colour demarcation. 

The first and second cockpits in Bronze Green, the radioman’s compartment, the turret, and the bomb bay in Interior Green, with the cowling interior in light grey.

Tarpon (Avenger) II: General Motors Eastern Aircraft Division built

226 TBM-1 and TBM-1C (equivalent to TBF-1 and TBF-1C) serialled JZ301 to JZ526. TBM-1C from JZ361

108 TBM-1C serialled JZ527 to JZ634

WARBIRDS-TBM-Photo-no-2.jpg

JZ574

10 TBM-1 and TBM-1C serialled VL401 to VL410 (reconditioned aircraft. Delivered to FAA but none allocated to squadrons)

40 TBM-1, TBM-1C and TBM-3 serialled VL432 to VL461, VL501 to VL510(reconditioned aircraft. Delivered to FAA but none allocated to squadrons)

6 TBM-1C and TBM-3 serialled VL994 to VL999 (reconditioned aircraft. Delivered to FAA in Australia but none allocated to squadrons)

Eastern Aircraft-built Avengers used US TSS equivalent camouflage colours of Sea Grey, Olive Drab, and Sky Grey, with a more “soft-edge” colour demarcation.

The cockpit, turret and radio compartment in overall Interior Green and the bomb bay and cowling interior in Zinc Chromate.

Avenger III: General Motors Eastern Aircraft Division built.

Initial deliveries of the Mk.III were from TBM-3 production. Most of the JZ635-720 batch were TBM-3E, and it is this batch that saw limited WW2 service. I would not expect a one-to-one relationship with the BuAer serials, however sensible it may seem. The KE batch were TBM-3Es, and went to the UK.

80 TBM-3 / TBM-3E serialled JZ635 to JZ720. US BuAer No.s indicate that the first 16 aircraft were TBM-3s and the final 64 were TBM-3E.  (If there had been a one-to-one relationship with the BuAer serials, this would suggest a switchto TBM-3E from JZ651. However, AB picture of JZ654 (see below) shows TBM-3 characteristics – indented lower cowl flaps, stinger gun position extant, MK5 zero length rocket launchers but no underwing rack for an AN/ASP-4 radar pod 

Some Mk.III`s were delivered to the UK and were used post war, mostly on trials duties but most went S India and then some on to Australia and would have replaced the Mk.II`s serving aboard the BPF Fleet Carriers if the war had not ended when the bombs were dropped. Suddenly there was no use for all of these Mk.III`s so many were dumped at sea but those units remaining in theatre for any length of time re equipped with Mk.III`s and at least a couple of squadrons went to sea with them. Service records for aircraft of this batch end in 1946, when they were returned or more likely dumped.

50 TBM-3E serialled KE430 to KE479 (only 38 delivered to FAA and none allocated to front line squadrons). Most of those delivered, were used by second line squadrons until the late 40’s. Many of them were reconditioned ex US Navy aircraft and the SBG finish shows definite overpainting of the US Stars and also the previous US Navy sqn/carrier markings on the fin/rudder and upper wings too,....it is something to look out for on the few available photos including the well-known KE461. 

p1444840448-3.jpg

KE446

KE436 (see http://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p83129484/h55523C1C#h55523c1c)

However they must have had the FAA mods made prior to delivery (see below re fixture and fittings for 1945/46 TBM-3Es).

Some reconditioned TBM-3s in VL serial range delivered to FAA but none allocated to squadrons (see Tarpon (Avenger) II above). Except for VL994 to 999, which reported to Sydney aboard HMS Reaper 9.45. The last three appear to have been Mk.IIIs. Three others, described as "elderly", were handed over to the FAA at Norfolk "possibly as GI".

Delivered in Sea Blue Gloss with an ant-glare Non-spectacular Sea Blue panel in front of the cockpit. Interior colours as per MKII. With the introduction of Sea Blue Gloss paintwork, the wheel wells were seen to be painted matt black on factory fresh machines. This was done so that any cracks caused through metal fatigue would be more easily noticed during mechanical or pre-flight checks.

These are all the FACTORY APPLIED finishes. Carrier based aircraft were regularly checked for corrosion and touched up, or resprayed with FAA designated paint when returned to land bases in the UK. If the a/c were subsequently re-painted by the FAA, they would use standard colours (FAA formally adopted SBG for US supplied aircraft from August 1944). So you will need the serial to see how the a/c was finished. AB picture of JZ654 with delivery number in Canada and crown picture p82 in Profile 214 and in book ‘The Secret Years - Flight Testing at Boscombe Down 1939-1945’ of JZ635 at A&AEE of TBM-3s in TSS. Photo seen by others of JZ681 (TBM-3E) in SBG so perhaps JZ series TBM-3s delivered in TSS and TBM-3Es in SBG?

1228480F.jpg

Fixtures and fittings

When the FAA adopted the Avenger in WWII, it was to fulfil the TBR mission. The standard TBR crew was a pilot, observer, and the Telegraphist Air Gunner (TAG), who operated the radio equipment and handled rear defence. 

The observer was responsible for navigation, gunnery spotting, reconnaissance work, and weapon aiming during an attack (other than dive-bombing mission). To suit the Avenger to this different crew combination, Blackburn Aircraft set up a rework facility in the US to modify airframes into a similar configuration as the original TBF, with a full cockpit behind the pilot for the observer (on USN aircraft this area was used as a rack for radio equipment).

FAA Tarpons/Avengers delivered in WWII had the centre (navigator) cockpit as per the first fifty TBF-1s, with the observers seat placed looking forward immediately behind the pilot. It had rudimentary flight instruments and a stick and pedals. The stick was stored on the fuselage side until needed. There was no provisions for the Norden sight, though the bombing panel was retained.

All had FAA radios, gun sights, Sutton harnesses and oxygen systems. 

F24 camera fitted in the TAG’s station (replacing stinger gun?) and ROTAG attachment points added.

Radio mast was hinged so it could be folded over.  Was it simply a matter of adding a hinge to whatever mast was on the airframe. Photographic evidence indicates vertical and re-positioned masts as per TBF-1c and TBM-1c were not fitted to FAAMK I and II machines (see below).

Round domed windows replaced flat oval windows on the fuselage side by the TAG’s station. 

Though most may have not had a lower rear gun (replaced by a camera), some FAATarpons had it installed.

TBF-1 and TBM-1

Had one a single upper right cowl mounted .30 calibre machine gun and associated gun trough.

Radio mast on top of the canopy sloped backwards slightly. Antenna lead in was below the rear canopy.

From late 1944/early 1945, the Stinger gun was removed.

Late production airframes had Westinghouse ASB search radar installed with Yagi aerial arrays toed outwards at 40 attached under each outboard wing. (see photo of FN908 above)

TBF-1C and TBM-1C

Had a .50 calibre machine gun mounted in each wing just outboard of the wing fold. The .30 calibre machine gun and associated gun trough were deleted. 

The radio mast on top of the canopy was moved further aft and stood vertically. Antenna lead in was moved to the fuselage side below the turret. 

Photographic evidence indicates vertical and re-positioned masts as per TBF-1c and TBM-1c were not fitted to FAA MK I and II machines. Photos of possibleTBF-1C and confirmed (according to Sturtivant and Burrow) TBM-1Cs seen include;

FN912

Scale Aircraft Modelling May 84

TBF-1C?

JZ114

Model Aircraft Monthly Aug 05

TBF-1C?

JZ150

Internet – Britmodeller forum

TBF-1C?

JZ159

Air Britain Squadrons of the FAA

TBF-1C?

JZ229

Air Britain FAA Aircraft 1939-45

TBF-1C?

JZ396

Air Britain FAA Aircraft 1939-45

TBM-1C

JZ401

Aeroplane Monthly Nov 02

TBM-1C

JZ434

Scale Aircraft Modelling Feb 94

TBM-1C

JZ466

Model Aircraft Monthly Aug 05

TBM-1C

JZ496

Scale Aircraft Modelling May 84

TBM-1C

JZ497

Aeroplane Monthly Nov 02

TBM-1C

JZ535

Aeroplane Monthly Nov 02

TBM-1C

JZ541

Air Britain FAA Aircraft 1939-45

TBM-1C

JZ594

Scale Aircraft Modelling May 84

TBM-1C

JZ614

FAA in Camera 1912-96

TBM-1C

Westinghouse ASB search radar installed with Yagi aerial arrays toed outwards at 40attached under each outboard wing. 

Late production airframes had 70 inch MK4 rocket rails and wing racks fitted. Later still, MK5 zero length rocket launchers were fitted. However these were removed in FAA service.

From late 1944/early 1945, the Stinger gun was removed.

Later airframes fitted with propellers of broader chord?

TBM-3 

Had an uprated engine which required a redesigned cowling to provide adequate cooling and airflow for the engine’s relocated oil cooler.

Intakes at 12:00 and 6:00 o’clock positions (previous variants had just the one intake at the 12:00 o’clock position).

Four additional cowl flaps down each side of the cowling. The bottom two were indented and the lowest one notched to clear the exhaust stack, which was of a slightly different shape.

MK5 zero length rocket launchers fitted as standard and cockpit instruments re-arranged.

All FAA specific mods as per earlier versions (dome windows, observers station, British equipment etc.) made.

TBM-3E (1945/46)

Lightweight (by nearly a ton)variant of TBM-3.

Engine cowl flaps further refined with the indentation removed from the bottom two flaps.

From my basic research which was done quite a few years ago so my memory might not be correct, I think that the British Mk.III`s were TBM-3E`s from BuAer69140. If there had been a one-to-one relationship with the BuAer serials, this would suggest a switch to TBM-3E from JZ651. 

However, Air Britain (AB) picture of JZ654 shows TBM-3 characteristics – indented lower cowl flaps, stinger gun position extant, MK5 zero length rocket launchers but no underwing rack for an AN/ASP-4 radar pod 

I have written down that from BuAer86175 the TBM-3E` had external hooks fitted, meaning that the first batch of Mk.III`s serialled JZ635-JZ720 had internal hooks but the second and subsequent batches, beginning with KE430 had external hooks? The available photos that I have seen seem to bear this out.

Stinger gun position and associated windows deleted.

An under-wing rack for an AN/APS-4 radar pod was installed under the starboard wing. Pod used by or at least seen on some operational aircraft. 

A larger tail wheel was fitted to some aircraft

Tail and wing de-icing gear was dispensed with.

All presumed to have FAA specific mods as per earlier versions (dome windows, observers station behind pilot, British equipment etc.) made. Photos of KE443 in AB FAA Aircraft since 1946 and KE461 in Eric Brown's Fly Navy, show dome windows and open canopy above observers station.

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6 hours ago, 85sqn said:

 

Sea Grey ANA 603 was British Extra Dark Sea Grey so wasn't a substitute as such.

Sky Type S Gray ANA 610 was meant to be equivalent to British TSS Sky as well but there was apparently a difference.

There was no ANA equivalent for Sky simply because at the time of the ANA consolidation it was not required by any service as a paint colour. 'Sky Type S Gray' (or Grey) was terminology used by Dupont for its Sky equivalent paint 71-021 and is nowhere near FS 36373 in appearance by any measure. British requirements for Sky under surfaces were commonly communicated and specified as 'Duck Egg Blue' rather than as any form of grey. The ANA 610 standard for Sky is close to FS 24424 and was retained until 1949 when it was superseded by FS 34424.

 

 

Some of that seems to have been cut and pasted from a comment I made here in October 2013. The third sentence should read (my emphasis):-

 

"There was no ANA equivalent for Sky Grey simply because at the time of the ANA consolidation it was not required by any service as a paint colour." 

 

The ANA terminology for Sky was simply 610 Sky. Although the JAC consolidation recommended that "the British Sky Type S Gray be accepted as standard" when the ANA colours were officially listed in Bulletin 157 of 25 September 1943 it was designated simply as "610 Sky". Bulletin 157a of 24 March 1944 listed it as being equivalent to or superceding the British MAP colour standard for Sky. It continued to be listed in subsequent editions of Bulletin 157 as "610 Sky" without further cross reference to the British colour until Bulletin 157d of 11 March 1959 (not 1949 as originally stated) when it was listed simply as "Sky" with the colour standard FS 34424 to be employed to supercede ANA 610. 

 

In the Technical Resources document for FS 595C of 2008 the colour name for FS 34424 is listed as "ANA 610" with no mention of Sky! 

 

In terms of difference Jerry S Smith in his 'ANA Standard Aircraft Colors 1943-1970' (1972) observed that FS 34424 and ANA 610 were "identical". This agreed with Ross Whistler's earlier 'USA(A)F Camouflage 1933-1969' (1969) where the two colours were described as an "exact match". Both were working to FS 595a and June 1943 ANA colour samples. Smith made the important comment that the 595a color chips "are not considered completely accurate by GSA as far as paint production is concerned". 

 

When I measured the colour chips the results were as follows:-

 

MAP Sky vs ANA 610 is at 5.44 where less than 2.0 = a close match. The ANA colour standard appears darker and more saturated.

FS 34424 vs ANA 610 is at 3.35. The FS appears marginally lighter.

MAP Sky vs FS 34424 is at 2.26. The FS appears marginally darker.

 

With paint batch variance and weathering all those differences approach the academic. MAP Sky was matched by paint manufacturers in the UK using a variety of pigment formulae whilst the pigments used to produce the 34424 standard are rutile titanium dioxide (non-chalking white), yellow iron oxide, benzimidazolone yellow, natural raw umber and phthalocyanine green (yellow shade). That is some way from the early Titanine PRU formula for Camotint (later Sky) of white (zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, antimony oxide or zinc oxide), 4% yellow oxide and a trace of prussian blue. In 1940 Goodlass, Wall & Co. Ltd. were making cellulose Sky with antimony oxide, vegetable black, chromium oxide (green) and yellow oxide.

 

Nick 

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  • 3 months later...

Hi folks just a couple of quick questions:

 

What colour was the wing fold area painted? In most of the photos I've looked at it certainly is not the same as the underside colour. 

 

Were Grumman manufactured aircraft externally primed with zinc yellow chromate?

 

Thanks

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As above JZ127 is either a TBF-1b or 1C (Avenger Mk1).

 

If there are differences between each sub variant made by both Grumman and Eastern please do tell!!

 

Thanks

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  • 2 weeks later...

Any further on this guys? Especially the wing fold area? My second photo from the top clearly shows two different tones between the rear section and the front portion of the folding wings. 

 

Some lovely wing fold detail here: 

WITH THE FLEET AIR ARM IN THE EAST. ROYAL NAVAL AIR STATION KATAKURUNDA, CEYLON. ACTIVITIES OF FLEET AIR ARM GROUND STAFF IN THE TROPICS.. © IWM (A 26917)

large_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photograph[/url]

 

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On 14/09/2017 at 12:31, 85sqn said:

What colour was the wing fold area painted? In most of the photos I've looked at it certainly is not the same as the underside colour. 

 

I'm sure there are bigger version available

 

2833232302_3fc0beed5a_o.jpgAvenger in South East Aisia by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Not an Avenger,   but as all the Hellcats were Grumman built may help?

5563260449_7cf7215962_o.jpgHellcat. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

edit

more from IWM

large_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photograph
AT HMS RAJALYIA, ROYAL NAVAL AIR STATION, COLOMBO, CEYLON. FEBRUARY 1945, ACTIVITIES AND PERSONNEL OF THE STATION.. © IWM (A 28090)IWM Non Commercial Licence

Air Mechanic (E) J W Letson, of Glasgow dismantling a damaged Avenger bomber at the Naval Air Station.

 

 

large_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photograph
WITH THE FLEET AIR ARM IN THE EAST. JUNE 1944, INDIA AND CEYLON. PREPARATIONS FOR THE NEXT PHASES OF THE CAMPAIGN IN EAST ASIA.. © IWM (A 24742)IWM Non Commercial Licence

An Avenger wing being unpacked "fresh" from America by Indian labourers. (Cochin, India).

Edited by Troy Smith
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On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 12:59 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

I'm sure there are bigger version available

 

2833232302_3fc0beed5a_o.jpgAvenger in South East Aisia by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Not an Avenger,   but as all the Hellcats were Grumman built may help?

5563260449_7cf7215962_o.jpgHellcat. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

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more from IWM

large_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photograph
AT HMS RAJALYIA, ROYAL NAVAL AIR STATION, COLOMBO, CEYLON. FEBRUARY 1945, ACTIVITIES AND PERSONNEL OF THE STATION.. © IWM (A 28090)IWM Non Commercial Licence

Air Mechanic (E) J W Letson, of Glasgow dismantling a damaged Avenger bomber at the Naval Air Station.

 

 

large_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photograph
WITH THE FLEET AIR ARM IN THE EAST. JUNE 1944, INDIA AND CEYLON. PREPARATIONS FOR THE NEXT PHASES OF THE CAMPAIGN IN EAST ASIA.. © IWM (A 24742)IWM Non Commercial Licence

An Avenger wing being unpacked "fresh" from America by Indian labourers. (Cochin, India).

Troy,

 

These photos are outstanding! Thanks for putting them up!

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
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Hi Troy thanks, zyc it is for the undercoat.

 

Now the wing fold looks grey, could be the same as the camouflage colour. So MAP equivalent EDSG or ANA 603.

 

I reckon the aft portion of the wing fold is sky. 

 

All makes sense I guess. Why whould these parts be painted in internal colours when they could be stored on deck exposed to the elements but also enemy eyes.

 

Cheers again.

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2 hours ago, Milo Burgh said:

If the rear cockpit was vacant, who aimed the bombs through the bomb bay?

 

it wasn't vacant, and  it was the Observer who aimed the bombs.

 

How the rear cockpit on FAA Avengers was fitted out is still  a matter of debate, but it was fitted out to FAA spec.

Quote

Paul Fontenoy
Re: Avenger Observer’s Position
Tuesday, 22 September 1998, at 8:39 p.m.

I realise this post doesn’t answer the question of how the after cockpit was fitted out, but it may assist in understanding some of the changes made on RN Tarpons/Avengers. The simple but uninformative answer to the question of what observaion was occurring is that observers didn’t observe anything!

“Observer” was a mission specialty (to use an anachronism) in the RN indicating aircrew trained in navigation, gunnery spotting, and reconnaissance work. Those qualified wore, instead of pilot’s wings, a “O” with a single wing. Their mission specialty grew out of experience during WWI, when every Corps Observation plane carried an observer (to observe the fall of shot), and subsequent RN concentration on gunnery spotting, exemplified by the introduction of the Blackburn Blackburn and Avro Bison into service in the 1920s. This single mission focus soon proved unworkable, given the limited space aboard carriers for specialized aircraft, so the RN, like the USN, began combining several missions in a single airframe with a more-broadly trained crew. The USN evolved the Scout Bomber category, combining bombing with reconnaissance, while the RN produced the Torpedo Bombing Reconnaissance (TBR) category, filled by the Swordfish at the outbreak of WWII.

When the FAA adopted the Avenger, it was to fulfill the TBR mission. The standard TBR crew was a pilot, observer, and the Telegraphist Air Gunner (TAG), who operated the radio equipment and handled rear defense. The observer was responsible for navigation, gunnery spotting, reconnaissance work, and weapon aiming during an attack (other than dive-bombing mission). To suit the Avenger to this different crew combination, Blackburn Aircraft set up a rework facility in the US to modify airframes into a similar configuration as the original TBF, with a full cockpit behind the pilot for the observer. I am hunting through some Blackburn Aircraft company documents accessible to me, and hunting down additional material, and the combination may eventually prduce an answer-if we get lucky.
 

 

There  have been more threads on this, but  I hope this answers  your question.

 

Edited by Troy Smith
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12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

it wasn't vacant, and  it was the Observer who aimed the bombs.

 

How the rear cockpit on FAA Avengers was fitted out is still  a matter of debate, but it was fitted out to FAA spec.

 

There  have been more threads on this, but  I hope this answers  your question.

 

Sorry, my question was not clear. I meant the rear internal cockpit, no that behind the pilot. In USN palnes, the bomb aimer post was in that "internal" cockpit. How did the observer in the greenhouse cockpit aim the bombs?

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I know, Mike.

 

What I want to know is if the observer had a device for aiming the bombs from the back cockpit, or he had to crawl under the turret to get to the bomb aiming position like in USN planes.

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Just going back through 'Front Line Avengrr Sqn' and as per the paragraph in my first post, I'm assuming  a bomb aiming device was transferred to the FAA specific cockpit, as only the TAG needed to occupy the lower space. Although the wording I have copy and pasted said there was 'no provision for the Norden sight, although the bombing panel was retained'. 

 

A pilot would be responsible for bombing in dive bomb attacks, torpedos and minelaying leaving level bombing for the chap in the back.

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21 hours ago, Milo Burgh said:

I know, Mike.

 

What I want to know is if the observer had a device for aiming the bombs from the back cockpit, or he had to crawl under the turret to get to the bomb aiming position like in USN planes.

Sorry- forgot you wanted info on the FAA-flown Avengers, my mistake!

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
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Milo,

 

I did some thinking (Always dangerous in my case!) as well as re-examining actual photos and also interiors of the larger scale Avengers, and I don't see how it would have been possible for a bomb sight to have been fitted in the observer's station of FAA Avengers that was created by removing the  radio/radar equipment located behind the pilot on USN aircraft and putting the observer's seat there. That seat looks like it was basically right above the center of the bomb bay, and even with bombs located on either side of the bay, they would interfere with the view from a sight; in addition, there would have to be an aperture or sighting window cut in the floor for a bomb sight, as well as a mount, and I have yet to see any evidence that this was done by Blackburn. My guess, and it's an uneducated and unsubstantiated one, is that the ordnance was sighted and released from the aft position inside the rear cabin, or by using pilot's sight, which, IIRC, had settings for level bombing/rocket firing on the later sights. Maybe Tailspin Turtle has some references or thoughts on this subject, but since the Avenger you want to do is an FAA example, maybe not. Regardless, the FAA Avengers are sure pretty, and I can't wait to see the finished product!

Mike

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