Late war Hellcat color question

[Spitfires Forever]

Hello Gents,

The next kit up to bat is a 1/48 F6F-5 Hellcat that would have flown early 1945. Now the question is an overall dark non-specular blue, or glossy sea blue? Or, a glossy non-spec blue? Any help on this would be great. I haven't built a legit Hellcat, last one was an old Monogram "Toycat" that I rattle canned non-spec dark blue. I spent the money on a nice Eduard kit and its up next.

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

Hi  Randy

 

latewar was overall Glossy Sea Blue ANA 623, (with a non specular anti glare panel??)  I can't see any anti glare panel here

VF-82 Grumman F6F-5 ready for launch from USS Bennington off Okinawa in May 1945

 

Quote

Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat VF 11 Sundowners Ginger 29 USS Hornet CV 12 1945

 

can't see any anti glare here either.

 

 

but with markings still in insignia blue ...or supposed to be

 

but, can't see any insignia Blue surrounds,  and Grumman suggested dropping the Insignia Blue

 

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/sea-blue-vs-insignia-blue.html

Quote

Toward the end of World War II, the complex Navy camouflage scheme for carrier-based aircraft was gradually replaced with an overall Sea Blue color. However, the national insignia was retained intact. This provided examples that directly compare Sea Blue and Insignia Blue. (Note that the colors may not have been accurately depicted in the original that I scanned, much less on your computer screen.)

It was eventually suggested, probably by Grumman, that the Insignia Blue surround of the national insignia was redundant and should be eliminated on all-blue airplanes. It was reportedly deleted well before the official authorization to do so was issued in June 1946.

 

 

One other point, wartime Glossy Sea Blue ANA 623 is different color to the post 1947  Glossy Sea Blue FS15042.

@Dana Bell  wrote

Quote

Nonspecular Sea Blue, Semigloss Sea Blue, and Glossy Sea Blue were three different colors, not just three different gloss factors. When freshly applied, the paints were distinctly different, and demarcations could easily be seen where two colors came together. The paints also faded differently, accentuating the differences. In short, a gloss coat over NS Sea Blue, or a flat coat over Glossy Sea Blue will possible result in a color that just doesn't look right to you on a finished model.

Additionally, Glossy Sea Blue faded terribly and was completely reformulated in 1947 - the GSB applied to a Panther might seem totally wrong on a wartime Avenger or Hellcat - and you won't normally know which chip a model paint manufacturer used when formulating his paints. (Some years ago, one model paint manufacturer was mercilessly attacked for his poor matching of GSB - but the paint was a near-exact match for the original 1943 paint chip; the reviewer was using a 1950s chip for comparison.)

 

 

 

 

Dana again

Quote

There are a couple of other reasons the model paint manufacturers have had problems matching the Sea Blues.  Most are working from the FS595 chips, which never accurately matched all three versions of the wartime colors.  The other problem is that the formula for ANA 623 Glossy Sea Blue changed in 1947/48.  The original color faded to quickly and was replaced with more resilient pigments.  When the US Navy gave modelers the old stocks of ANA paint chips in the 1960s/70s, some of us got the 1944 card-stock chip of ANA 623, while others got the 1948 metal replacement chips.  I can well remember the arguments back then, arguments that arose because we were working from different standards!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

also

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/sea-blue-vs-insignia-blue.html

 

note comment on insignia blue

 

Does any one know an acrylic mix for GSB ANA623?

 

For enamel users Sovereign Hobbies do all the USN Blues now

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/united-states-army-air-corps-united-states-air-force?page=2

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Troy Smith

[Guest]

Thanks Troy, I will go with the best guesstimate. As an aside, did the navy ever use an almost medium blue color after the war? I have seen warbirds painted in this very bright blue color and was not sure if this is a made up blue or legitimate. While I am at it, is the blue-grey that was used in late 1942 the same as intermediate blue used on the early war fighters and bombers? I thought it would be fun to do an early Hellcat -3. Thanks again!

Cheers

[jimmaas]

Warbird colors are never a good idea to use for reference. 

 

The middle color of the 'three-tone' scheme was called Intermediate Blue.  In early 1943, the three-tone scheme superseded the earlier Blue-Gray/Light Gray scheme, which had been introduced in 1941.  Blue-Gray and Intermediate Blue were not the same color.  The mix for Blue-Gray involved Prussian Blue, which made the color look slightly green when compared to ultramarine-pigment-based colors like Intermediate blue. 

 

There has been some speculation that on early F4U Corsairs, which had originally had their lower outer wing panels painted in Blue-Gray (to avoid a bright undersurface color showing when the wings were folded) kept that obsolete color after the change to three-tone.  It wasn't terribly different from Intermediate Blue and repainting undersurface areas is a chore. 

[Troy Smith]

Hi Jim

a small point,  the '3 tone' scheme is 4 colors, 

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/brief-f4u-corsair-oriented-history-of.html

Quote

In January 1943, the U.S. Navy released a specification that replaced the simple Blue Gray over Light Gray camouflage scheme scheme with a complex one that employed counter-shading and counter-shadowing. Four colors were used: Semigloss Sea Blue on upper surfaces, non-specular Sea Blue on the wing leading edges, non-specular Intermediate Blue Sides, and non-specular Insignia White on the lower surfaces. Four-place national insignia were again decreed on 1 February 1943 in order to further minimize the likelihood of confusion with Japanese markings which were six place.

 

note also the quote of Dana

Quote

Nonspecular Sea Blue, Semigloss Sea Blue, and Glossy Sea Blue were three different colors, not just three different gloss factors. When freshly applied, the paints were distinctly different, and demarcations could easily be seen where two colors came together. The paints also faded differently, accentuating the differences. 

 

cheers

T

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Hi Jim

a small point,  the '3 tone' scheme is 4 colors, 

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/brief-f4u-corsair-oriented-history-of.html

 

note also the quote of Dana

 

cheers

T

Exactly why I want to do a single color scheme, the 4 color scheme may be a bit beyond my painting skill level, especially if I want to create any kind of scale effect. Although you can't beat that scheme with the red surround around the stars and bars. Weren't some of the PBY Privateers painted in a similar fashion, but with an almost turquoise blue instead of the intermediate blue? I digress. I really like that nice glossy dark blue, really pretty with the white decals. As an aside, just finished McCampbell's Heroes, a great book about the Fabled Fifteen F6F pilots who flew from the USS ESSEX, so kind of excited to build a glossy blue Hellcat. Thanks again Troy.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

4 hours ago, Spitfire addict said:

Thanks Troy, I will go with the best guesstimate. As an aside, did the navy ever use an almost medium blue color after the war? I have seen warbirds painted in this very bright blue color and was not sure if this is a made up blue or legitimate. While I am at it, is the blue-grey that was used in late 1942 the same as intermediate blue used on the early war fighters and bombers? I thought it would be fun to do an early Hellcat -3. Thanks again!

Cheers

 

If guesstimating (which is fine ) then ANA623 gives a visual appearance of being less saturated than the fairly intense "midnight blues" that many use on models. It looks to the eye to be a bit more grayish than the fairly bright colours many select from the generic model paints shelf.

[Nick Millman]

6 hours ago, jimmaas said:

Warbird colors are never a good idea to use for reference. 

 

The middle color of the 'three-tone' scheme was called Intermediate Blue.  In early 1943, the three-tone scheme superseded the earlier Blue-Gray/Light Gray scheme, which had been introduced in 1941.  Blue-Gray and Intermediate Blue were not the same color.  The mix for Blue-Gray involved Prussian Blue, which made the color look slightly green when compared to ultramarine-pigment-based colors like Intermediate blue. 

 

There has been some speculation that on early F4U Corsairs, which had originally had their lower outer wing panels painted in Blue-Gray (to avoid a bright undersurface color showing when the wings were folded) kept that obsolete color after the change to three-tone.  It wasn't terribly different from Intermediate Blue and repainting undersurface areas is a chore. 

 

The reason for the "slightly green" impression, which is a fugitive undertone not reflected in the Munsell value of Blue for that colour, was probably not so much the Prussian Blue per se but the interaction of that pigment with Antimony Oxide which can be slightly yellowish or cream. There were two white pigments in the Blue-Gray paint (the other being Titanium Oxide) but Antimony Oxide was commercialised as Timonex in the 1920s as a fire retardant and that might be the reason.  

 

Nick