Help with Vultee Vanguard (P66)

[Mr T]

I am just starting the Sword kit of the Vultee Vanguard (P66) and although the instructions give colours etc for the exterior, there is nothing about cockpits etc. I am building it as one of the aircraft that was painted up for the RAF before they were rejected and sent to the Chinese. Any helpful suggestions would be much appreciated. My own searches have not revealed very much. I have found  some cockpit photos that could almost be any colour, but might be green, aluminium or grey. Thanks in advance.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Martin T
Inability to transfer words in head to a screen

[mhaselden]

Impossible to answer with any degree of certainty, I'm afraid.  The only detailed reference I have on the type is in J-10 form with the Swedish Air Force.  The book (rather unhelpfully, I must add) states that the interiors of Swedish machines were only to be coated with anti-corrosion primer, which could presumably mean yellow/green zinc chromate or aluminium. 

 

I've seen no definitive info on the cockpit for the RAF airframes.  Logically it would be some US equivalent of RAF Grey-Green but that's pure speculation on my part based on the assumption that (a) the RAF specified the interior colour of its P-66 order as it seems to have done for other direct purchases (b) Curtiss Wright complied with the instruction sufficiently that the aircraft passed factory inspection by MAP personnel based in the US.

 

Sorry I can't be more help.  But look on the bright side...nobody can tell you you're definitively wrong regardless of the colour you apply!

 

Cheers,
Mark

Edited May 10, 2017 by mhaselden

[Mr T]

Thanks Mark,

Was a long shot, I have found a colour photo that shows a Vanguard under construction and from what I can make out there seems to be some sort of green colour. It seems that the British Purchasing Commission took over a Swedish order that was embargoed by the US Government in 1940 to use them as fighter trainers in Canada. apparently four were painted in British colours, so I might go with a Green near to Aircraft Grey-Green. The Vengeance was ordered about the same time and so I assume that they would have similar finishes specified. All this BPC and Lease-Lend gets pretty complicated.

[mhaselden]

Yeah...entirely concur.  We simply don't know how strenuously the MAP personnel in the US enforced colour requirements for the interior.  For the Hudsons, it's clear the interior colour, while a pale green shade, was very different from MAP Grey-Green.  IIRC US Bronze Green was not unknown for some airframes, although it's not clear whether it was used before or after the commencement of Lend-Lease.  Sadly, such esoteric details are almost non-existent.  

[Nick Millman]

The three "British" Vanguards (BW208, BW209 and BW210) were only pattern-painted "temporarily" in the RAF scheme before production was taken over by the USAAF for China and the remaining aircraft finished in OD over Neutral Grey before transfer. The Swedish prototypes were in natural metal finish with anti-glare panels. FWIW I think it unlikely that the bulk of the production run were finished to RAF spec and from the production dates the cockpits were probably in a Vultee version of tinted zinc chromate "yellow green" - which was a slightly lighter, more yellowish green than the later ANA Interior Green. The Vultee production serials ran from 503 to 645 (USAAF serials 42-6833-6975) and 510 was photographed in the standard USAAF scheme. 

 

Nick

[Seahawk]

47 minutes ago, Nick Millman said:

The three "British" Vanguards (BW208, BW209 and BW210) were only pattern-painted "temporarily" in the RAF scheme before production was taken over by the USAAF for China and the remaining aircraft finished in OD over Neutral Grey before transfer.

 

Thanks: that's my recollection as well.

 

If building this kit as a "British" Vanguard, be careful about the canopy.  IIRC this kit has been issued twice.  The original Sword boxing had the one canopy, the rebox (by AZ?) catered for both canopy variants (ie also the version with extended rear glazing seen on at least one of the "British" Vanguards). 

[Nick Millman]

Just to add that those were the first three of the British order, which was allocated serials from BW208 to BW351 according to Air Britain, but Vultee record only 100 serials for Britain BW208-BW307. The second production prototype Vultee # 502 completed in January 1940 (and flown in natural metal with the civilian registration NX28300) was the first accepted of the production series in 10/41 and given USAAF serial 42-6832. Vultee 510, mentioned above, should have been BW215 but appeared in standard US OD/Gray finish with no sign of a British or USAAF serial, no national insignia and just the Vultee serial on the fin. According to Air Arsenal the decision for USAAF to take over production was also in 10/41, the same month of acceptance of the second production prototype but according to Air Britain's British Air Commission book the decision was taken in June 1941. Vultee record the whole production run of 144 from 10/41 to 4/42 taken over by USAAF but only 104 were delivered to China and not all of those were assembled.

 

The Swedish order was originally embargoed for diversion to France as substitutes for the P-36 and when France collapsed the British took over the order on behalf of Canada which wanted 72 of them as fighter trainers. The BAC book mentions that the contract was supposed to be placed with a Canadian contractor in December 1940, whatever that means, presumably license-built? The same book describes the RAF schemes as "promotional colours" and notes that the type never featured in BAC Summary records. 

 

Nick

[Troy Smith]

This is supposed to be the prototype under construction

 

 

there maybe a better version of it out there.  The internals seem to be the same as BT-13's in the background.

[Mr T]

Thanks for the info everyone. I did wonder about the photos Nick as I was looking in the Air Arsenal book, which told me something, but seemed a bit vague about some of dates, or perhaps because I was reading it late at night. It might also explain the natural metal prop. Troy, the photo you linked was I one I mentioned and I still think it has a green cast to it