Interior Colour Query- RAAF Boomerang & RAF Buffalo?

[tonyot]

Hiya Folks,

                 Can anybody please help with the interior colours for the RAAF Boomerang and RAF Buffalo?

 

I know that the Wirraway was silver BUT did CAC change over to Interior Grey Green for the Boomerang or did they retain silver? 

 

Also the RAF Buffalo,.....were these silver like the US Navy/Finnish (& Dutch?) or were they painted using an American equivalent to RAF Interior Grey Green as per the Hudson and other American types bought by the RAF? I have heard both colours banded around and wondered which was correct?

 

Also,..... does anybody know the interior colour for RAF Mohawk`s too?

 

Cheers

           Tony 

[Beard]

Tony,

I assume you've read this: http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/01/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us.htm

 

If not, it's worth a read, although I don't know how accurate it is.

[tonyot]

2 hours ago, Beard said:

Tony,

I assume you've read this: http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/01/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us.htm

 

If not, it's worth a read, although I don't know how accurate it is.

Hiya Beard,....cheers for that link,....no I had not seen it before and it was extremely interesting,.....I`ll be referring to that many times in the future. Unfortunately it doesn`t answer my current query,.....but is a brilliant refernece source for future projects,

Cheers

           Tony

[occa]

32 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Hiya Beard,....cheers for that link,....no I had not seen it before and it was extremely interesting,.....I`ll be referring to that many times in the future. Unfortunately it doesn`t answer my current query,.....but is a brilliant refernece source for future projects,

Cheers

           Tony

 

Did you see this in part II of that article ?

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/05/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us_part3.htm

 

It's not exactly about the RA(A)F examples tho

 

Close view of a cockpit of an unidentified Brewster Buffalo at Naval Air Station, Miami, Florida in April 1943. This F2A was used as a training aircraft. The photo shows Zinc Chromate Green details behind the pilots's head. Interestingly, the rollover cage beneath the rear canopy is painted in some other colour. The instrument panel decking below the windscreen is matt black.

 

Cheers

Martin

[Beard]

Sorry I couldn't be more help Tony. I've done a Google search, for the Buffalo question, but my iPad won't let me paste the links I've found!

 

 

 

 

[Ed Russell]

Boomerang

The appropriate Red Roo Boomerang Enhancement Set has full detailed interior colour information.

You need the set to make an accurate Boomerang.

https://www.redroomodels.com/red-roo-resin-148/boomerang-enhancement-set-148/

https://www.redroomodels.com/red-roo-resin-172/boomerang-enhancement-set-172/

Buffalo

http://warbirdsforum.yuku.com/topic/1096#.WROS1Lh9shw

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968562-buffalo-cockpit-and-airframe-colours-question/

 

[mhaselden]

Tony,

 

As with most things Bovine, the jury's still out on the exact shade applied to the cockpits of RAF Buffalos.  US Equivalent of MAP Grey-Green would be logical but there's precious little evidence to support the claim, other than the knowledge that other aircraft types purchased in the US around the same time were so painted. 

 

For the Boomerangs, most photos I've seen (including restoration shots) show green interior. I plan to pick up the Red Roo Boomer Enhancement Set - the painting guide alone is worth the price of the set (IMHO). 

 

Cheers,
Mark

[airjiml2]

34 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

US Equivalent of MAP Grey-Green would be logical but there's precious little evidence to support the claim, other than the knowledge that other aircraft types purchased in the US around the same time were so painted. 

 

Has there been any confirmation of the MAP Grey-Green being used on any RAF type built in the U.S. other than the Hudson and Ventura?

Jim

[pacificmustang]

GDay Tony

 

RAAF Interior Green is what you need for the Boomerang. 

A colour more green than The RAF Cockpit Grey Green .  White Ensign Models have it in their range

When researching the colour for my RAF Buffalo, I found this was one of those questions that just did not seem to have a definate answer,

You know the kind, you spend the rest of your modelling career researching it and the model goes no where.  In the end I took an informed guess based on balance of probability and went with RAF Grey green

Cheers

Bruce

[Rabbit Leader]

Tony,

Just at work at the moment, however I'm of the belief that RAAF Boomerang interiors were painted K3/193 - the Australian equivalent of British Grey Green and a very close match. When I get home I'll re-read my references again, however for some reason this seems to stick in my mind.

I also believe that late war DAP & CAC built aircraft were furnished in a much brighter Cockpit Green - K3/332 (a useful equivalent being Humbrol 101 - IMO).

.... Sorry - I'm not touching the Buffalo query!!

 

PM also sent.

 

Cheers.. Dave.

 

 

 

 

[mhaselden]

55 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

.... Sorry - I'm not touching the Buffalo query!!

 

 

Is that cowardice or a dislike for canned worms, open or otherwise?  

[Rabbit Leader]

Just now, mhaselden said:

 

Is that cowardice or a dislike for canned worms, open or otherwise?  

 

100% Unadulterated cowardice !!

I could have said that I've got one of those rare Brewsters books titled "How to paint RAF aircraft to confuse those pesky future modellers", but I didn't want to advertise the fact and be flooded with thousands of PM's requesting a scanned copy!

 

Cheers... Dave.      

[mhaselden]

You're a bad man, Dave. :)

[mhaselden]

3 hours ago, airjiml2 said:

 

Has there been any confirmation of the MAP Grey-Green being used on any RAF type built in the U.S. other than the Hudson and Ventura?

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

To be pedantic, MAP Grey-Green was not used on any US-built aircraft.  All US colours were supposed to be close equivalents (I did say I was being pedantic! ) but, as seen with the Hudson, "close" is a relative term. 

 

From what I can see, the early P-40s probably had a green cockpit that was "close enough for Government work" but probably not very close to MAP Grey-Green.  Again, we just don't know (in most cases) what paint was applied or how rigourously the MAP inspectors did their job.  I imagine if any shortcuts were to be made, the interior colour would be one area ripe for "let's do whatever's easiest" whereas the operational camouflage ought (stress OUGHT) to have been pretty close to the MAP shades simply from an operational sustainment perspective.

 

Cheers,
Mark

[tonyot]

12 hours ago, Beard said:

Sorry I couldn't be more help Tony. I've done a Google search, for the Buffalo question, but my iPad won't let me paste the links I've found!

 

 

 

 

You`ve been a massive help mate,......thank you so much,.....that IPMS Stockholm file was a great find which will come in really useful in the future!

Cheers

          Tony

[tonyot]

11 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

Boomerang

The appropriate Red Roo Boomerang Enhancement Set has full detailed interior colour information.

You need the set to make an accurate Boomerang.

https://www.redroomodels.com/red-roo-resin-148/boomerang-enhancement-set-148/

https://www.redroomodels.com/red-roo-resin-172/boomerang-enhancement-set-172/

Buffalo

http://warbirdsforum.yuku.com/topic/1096#.WROS1Lh9shw

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968562-buffalo-cockpit-and-airframe-colours-question/

 

Cheers Ed and thanks for the info that you e mailed,..... really useful as usual.

All the best mate

                           Tony

[tonyot]

Thanks for your input fella`s,....I really appreciate you all taking the time out to help,......you`ve put my mind at ease! Now you all know what I`ve got planned next

 

All the best and cheers again,

                                              Tony

[Nick Millman]

On 11 May 2017 at 3:53 AM, mhaselden said:

 

Hi Jim,

 

To be pedantic, MAP Grey-Green was not used on any US-built aircraft.  All US colours were supposed to be close equivalents (I did say I was being pedantic! ) but, as seen with the Hudson, "close" is a relative term. 

 

 

Cheers,
Mark

 

And to be even more pedantic MAP Grey-Green was not used on any British-built aircraft either. It was a colour standard not a paint and didn't have a hyphen!  In Air Diagram 2390 'Aircraft Dopes and Finishes - Vocabulary Numbers' appended to instructions to improve aircraft maintenance by Fighter Command on 14 September 1942 it is listed simply as 'Grey Green', a synthetic enamel to DTD260A "S" for spray application available only in a single one gallon container - all the others in that category are for brush application. It is not listed at all under any of the other categories, including DTD 83A Cellulose or DTD 314 Synthetic. But at aircraft factories the colour would have been applied by procurement of commercial paint to match the MAP (?) standard, with inevitable variance. By late 1943 it was being stores listed across a number of specs in various sized containers. The MAP swatch books touted around, where it is the sixth swatch and listed as 'Grey Green', cover all those specs so there is a question as to when the MAP standard was first established (also refer to the late Edgar Brooks comments on the eau-de-nil/Sky-like interior colour of Spitfires). 

 

The 1942 Dupont colour card for MAP finishes lists 71-036 as Cockpit Light Green (which is a brighter, more blueish green like the Hudson interior paint) whereas all the other colours on the card use correct MAP/RAF terminology. 

 

The antecedence of the Grey Green colour is interesting because the 1925 RAE cockpit trials, which included a "Grey Green", concluded that all the colours tested were satisfactory but that "Light Grey" was the "most pleasing". There was also a "primer green", circa 1925, reportedly used in cockpits which was lighter and more yellowish than the MAP Grey Green that we all know and love. FWIW therefore I think the specification for RAF cockpit colours might have been more loosely applied in the period 1940-42.    

 

Nick 

[Chuck1945]

Good info Nick, it too easy to slip into an automatic comfort zone regarding colors we 'know' were always used and inevitably matched the standards

[airjiml2]

Mark and Nick,

 

Thank you for your pedantic comments and Nick thank you for the education.  When I wrote MAP Grey-Green, I was thinking 71-036 as Cockpit Light Green, but my brain was, obviously, not engaged.

 

Mark - The only item I've seen that purports to show something like 71-036 on P-40s was so vague that it was hard to make any judgement.  Is there more out there?  

 

Jim

[LDSModeller]

On 11/05/2017 at 4:42 AM, tonyot said:

Hiya Folks,

                 RAF Buffalo?

Also the RAF Buffalo,.....were these silver like the US Navy/Finnish (& Dutch?) or were they painted using an American equivalent to RAF Interior Grey Green as per the Hudson and other American types bought by the RAF? I have heard both colours banded around and wondered which was correct?

 

Also,..... does anybody know the interior colour for RAF Mohawk`s too?

 

Cheers

           Tony 

Hi Tony,

 

Bear im mind that the Brewster 339E Buffalo was not Lend Lease.

 

Great Britain paid for the airframes with British Money/gold, therefore the expectation would be that specifications were given and Brewster would come up with the goods per those expectations/specifications.

 

The Brewster 339E's were ordered around the time of the Battle of Britain - think what the interiors of Mk I Spitfires and Hurricanes were painted with, and translate that to the Buffalo.

The RAF 339E like the Spitfire Mk I had aluminium/Silver painted behind the pilots rear frame, we see that from photos (assembly ones) that the 339E also had Aluminium/Silver on framing in the engine bay. Natural Aluminium Seat like in a Mk I Hurricane, as in photo below

 

We know the cockpit was painted - exact colour a US manufactured version of a British supplied specification - did Brewster use DuPont or Berry Brothers ????   What to use - a suitable RAF Cockpit colour similar to what you might find in a Mk I Spitfire/Hurricane.

 

While the 339 externally looked a similar to a USN F2A-2, the 339E was not a USN aircraft.

Internally, especially the cockpit was quite different to a F2A-2 (layout was similar) note the following

Oxygen bottle cage Starboard side behind pilot seat

Squared off seat - Sutton harness, seat mount tubing attached to roll over bar

Airflow louvres under pilots seat

British MkVIII oxygen Reguator Starboard side

Remote contactor under IP

Starboard side Instrument panel different to USN F2A-2

Portside cockpit shelf differed to F2A-2 including a pair of pliers to assist the pilot in landing emegencies

TR9 controller Portside

Heating ducting under cockpit seating frame, distributor attached to forward bulkhead

Rear Starboard fuselage Flare chute

Note: if Brewster had to reconfigure the cockpit for the RAF, I think they could paint the cockpit in RAF colours

 

Hope that helps

 

Alan

 

On 12/05/2017 at 4:11 AM, airjiml2 said:

Mark - The only item I've seen that purports to show something like 71-036 on P-40s was so vague that it was hard to make any judgement.  Is there more out there?  

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim

Curtiss P40E-1 for an RAF order wore this colour in the cockpit - Part of this order was diverted to RAAF/RNZAF,

early 1942. This control column (link below) is from NZ3009 (RAF serial ET482)

 

P40E-1 control column

 

FWIW, To me the colour is not too dissimilar to this RAF chip

RAF Cockpit Colour Chip

 

Hope this helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by LDSModeller
Edit Colour chip link

[72modeler]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, Rabbit Leader said:

 

100% Unadulterated cowardice !!

I could have said that I've got one of those rare Brewsters books titled "How to paint RAF aircraft to confuse those pesky future modellers", but I didn't want to advertise the fact and be flooded with thousands of PM's requesting a scanned copy!

 

Cheers... Dave.      

You, sir, are a knave!

Mike

[airjiml2]

16 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Curtiss P40E-1 for an RAF order wore this colour in the cockpit - Part of this order was diverted to RAAF/RNZAF,

early 1942. This control column (link below) is from NZ3009 (RAF serial ET482)

 

P40E-1 control column

 

Alan,

 

Thank you sir!  That is the first definitive proof I've seen of such a colour used on a Tomahawk/Kittyhawk.  I really appreciate your post.

Jim

[stevehnz]

Thanks for those links Alan, I reckon I'll be using Hu78 rather than Hu225 for those early war British contract P-40s, I'm guessing the Flying Tigers ones would be likewise?

Steve.

[Nick Millman]

13 hours ago, airjiml2 said:

 

Alan,

 

Thank you sir!  That is the first definitive proof I've seen of such a colour used on a Tomahawk/Kittyhawk.  I really appreciate your post.

Jim

 

It is evidence but not proof as the provenance of that piece leaves a few questions. The aircraft it came from went through several different units before long-term storage, has a long history of civil operation and restoration/re-painting in various guises:-

 

http://nzcivair.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/curtis-p-40e-kittyhawk-zk-rmhnz-3009.html

 

http://nzcivair.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/kittyhawk-p-40e-zk-rmh-addendum.html

 

FWIW the paint looks identical to RAF Grey Green which suggests that it isn't US factory paint, and there appear to be remnants of a darker, more olive green paint beneath the Grey Green (to the left of the image and beneath the central patch of bare metal). Remnants of Berryloid tinted zinc-chromate interior paint from another P-40 examined have darkened to a similar olive drab/green looking colour. Given the aircraft's history could it have been a replacement/re-painted part to begin with? When was it taken from the aircraft and why? Was it re-painted for display after being removed? What is the significance of the streak of cream paint, if any?  As an example of the need for caution Alan kindly sent me images of supposedly original camouflage on a Kittyhawk wing gun muzzle fairing but we noticed that the camo paint had been applied to the under surface side and the light blue to the upper! 

 

It is something of a convention that cockpits didn't get re-painted because of the impracticality of doing so but original RAF documents refer to the unsuitability of nitro-cellulose paints for spraying inside cockpits due to the fumes - and those are about RAF aircraft finishers rather than aircraft manufacturing factories. So there was clearly a precedent for the RAF (and RNZAF?) re-painting of cockpit interiors beyond just touch-ups. As noted above, in 1942 the only Grey Green paint available in stores vocabulary listing was a synthetic enamel for spray painting. Therefore I don't think it at all unfeasible that particular Kittyhawk got a re-paint during its long service or that Brewster cockpits arriving painted aluminium (if they did) could have been re-painted by the assembly teams, especially given the climate. But the Buffalo undercarriage painting suggests that the cockpit interiors were probably already painted in a "green" of some type to conform to RAF requirements. Vintage Frog used to suggest simply "pale green" but it was easier then . . .

 

Nick